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MrPopo
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by MrPopo Mon May 04, 2015 12:06 am

Blu wrote:Nope, because that point-of-view is exclusive and elitist. It goes beyond the nostalgia-induced "had to be there" perspective. I personally like how games evolve, integrate elements, it helps weave a neat fabric of game design and history as a medium of personal entertainment. So I'm not sure if you're just trolling, since most of your posts have some significant substance.

Only the non-elite use the word "elitist".
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Damm64
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Damm64 Mon May 04, 2015 12:34 am

I have to jump into the deus ex discussion.

Personally i didn't feel the "i love this game" until after my third or forth playthrough that's when you really see how the RPG system and upgrades comes into place. Yes, you can't get stuck on the game and that's great the levels are open with multiple solutions and ways to reach the same objective depending on your playstyle but you can't see all the roads on one regular single playthrough.

It's perfect? No, has it's issues but the good parts overweight the bad ones by far. I feel what best describes deus ex, at least to me, it's well said on this video:

https://youtu.be/X43i8NQ--_s?t=45

On the "you had to be there" argument i will admit that when playing a game you should have in mind the time it was made and it will have some rough edges but overall if a game it's good when was launched it will be good 20 years later even when some of the mechanics are not as refined like the modern games.
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by CFFJR Mon May 04, 2015 3:20 am

I feel like I need to defend myself here.

First, I need to state again that I did in fact like Deus Ex. Sorry I'm not gushing, ain't gonna happen, but I liked it.

Second, I really hope you guys don't think I'm unable to look at an old game objectively. Fact is, it is typically old games that I prefer, and if I were to stack them up to modern stuff, it would likely be the modern games that I find lacking. I can play an older title and see it for both what it was and what it is. I promise you all that the problems I had with the game would have bugged me just as much if I'd played it at launch.

You'll notice that I never said the game was dated. That is not a statement I have ever made about any game, or ever will, so if that's the impression that came across, it was not intended.

Third, I am not at all dismissing Deus Ex or its influence by calling it overrated. I am well aware of the impact the game had on the industry and on players. Having said that, the game is often tossed about as "the best game ever made", among other high praises. Hyperbole or not, that isn't right. Deus Ex is a good game, but it is not untouchable.

I can not objectively say what game is "the best ever" (honestly I'd say there isn't one) but its certainly not Deus Ex. That sentiment, to me, is putting the game on quite a pedestal, and it does not live up that impossible standard.

To be clear, I don't feel attacked or anything, I'm just offering a response.
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Erik_Twice Mon May 04, 2015 4:40 am

Xeogred wrote:Although CFFJR's post didn't bug me at all, I completely agree Blu. Good post. Time/Age should not dictate the quality of anything be in books, games, film, etc. You would think most here on a Retro gaming forum would hopefully agree.

Sure, which is why I don't treat old games any differently from newer games. I can explain, historically, why Deus Ex's voice acting is so awful. But doing so won't make it any less awful.

I doubt that's what you wanted to hear, though. :wink:
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Exhuminator Mon May 04, 2015 9:35 am

Blu wrote:Nope, because that point-of-view is exclusive and elitist. It goes beyond the nostalgia-induced "had to be there" perspective. I personally like how games evolve, integrate elements, it helps weave a neat fabric of game design and history as a medium of personal entertainment. So I'm not sure if you're just trolling, since most of your posts have some significant substance.

I was not trolling, I was just too tired to go into detail.

When it was released, there was no other FPS like Deus Ex. The closest thing would have been the System Shock series, but they did not offer the amount of plot freedom and NPC interaction that Deus Ex did. The amount of player agency Deus Ex gave the player in the construct of an FPS format was absolutely unprecedented. The cybernoir atmosphere was highly unique at the time as well. The gameplay systems put into place were far beyond in micro-detail what any other FPS offered at that time. Deus Ex was the first FPS-RPG hybrid that successfully pulled off the concept (before that Strife came close). Deus Ex's significance and influence in games of this genre is still being felt today. Deus Ex was also a true labor of love. Just read the post-mortem to get an idea of the passion and drive that went into this game: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1 ... php?page=1

Is Deus Ex perfect? No, the game has some issues. And technologically speaking, it's antiquated. But was Deus Ex mindblowing in 2000? You bet! I played this game fifteen years ago, and I still remember being utterly enthralled with it. That said, people who have played FPS games with RPG aspects aplomb in the past 360 era, may find Deus Ex to be a bit quaint. Yet they have a skewed frame of reference though. Because all of the things they've seen FPS/RPG hybrids do better than Deus Ex chances are Deus Ex already did it first. That's why those of us who played Deus Ex during its time, remember the game with such revelry. It's not elitism in that case, it's simply halcyon historical hierarchy.

Deus Ex may not hold up in the modern gaming era as something that's still amazing to play, at least when compared to descendent genre types having evolved over the past fifteen years. But Deus Ex's importance, significance, and influence in the history of gaming is absolutely legitimate. Deus Ex broke boundaries in gaming that don't exist today, and this game is absolutely part of the reason they don't exist.

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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Damm64 Mon May 04, 2015 10:12 am

CFFJR wrote:Third, I am not at all dismissing Deus Ex or its influence by calling it overrated. I am well aware of the impact the game had on the industry and on players. Having said that, the game is often tossed about as "the best game ever made", among other high praises. Hyperbole or not, that isn't right. Deus Ex is a good game, but it is not untouchable.

I can not objectively say what game is "the best ever" (honestly I'd say there isn't one) but its certainly not Deus Ex. That sentiment, to me, is putting the game on quite a pedestal, and it does not live up that impossible standard.


Now just because some claim is the best game ever made does not mean it's untouchable, unless that's what the term "best ever made" means to you, like i said above the good surpass the bad by a long mile and that's why i widely love by tons of people.

Also each time i hear the best ever made thing i always keep in mind is is just from that person's point of view and i always take it like "this is my favorite game" because there's no way to define ONE game that is perfection and should be the guideline for everything we made in the future and we should aspire to.

Not asking you to be part of the cult :lol: i was just explaining on why some people would put it like their favorite game aka the "best game ever made".
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Ack Mon May 04, 2015 10:23 am

1. Renegade Ops (PC)(Multidirectional Shooter)
2. Borderlands 2 (PC)(FPS/RPG)
3. Gunpoint (PC)(Puzzle Platformer)
4. Robotrek (SNES)(RPG)
5. The Tick (SNES)(Beat 'Em Up)
6. Alien vs Predator (SNES)(Beat 'Em Up)
7. X-Kaliber 2097 (SNES)(Action Platformer)
8. Metal Slug (MVS)(Run and Gun)
9. Shadowrun (SNES)(RPG)
10. Quake II (PC)(FPS)
11. The Twisted Tales of Spike McFang (SNES)(RPG)
12. Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number (PC)(Action)
13. A Story About My Uncle (PC)(Platformer)
14. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (PC)(FPS)
15. Star Wars Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith (PC)(FPS)
16. Catacomb (PC)(Top-Down Shooter)
17. Catacomb Abyss (PC)(FPS)

18. Catacomb Armageddon (PC)(FPS)
19. Catacomb Apocalypse (PC)(FPS)
20. The Catacomb (PC)(Top-Down Shooter)
21. Catacomb 3-D (PC)(FPS)
22. EarthBound (SNES)(RPG)
23. Quake II: Ground Zero (PC)(FPS)
24. Quake II: The Reckoning (PC)(FPS)
25. Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader (PC)(RPG)

I started playing this one a year ago and got through the vast majority of it before quitting to try the summer challenge. This year I figured before getting into the summer challenge, I would reinstall it and finish it up. If only I had known I was basically one weekend away from finishing it, I might never have stopped in the first place!

Lionheart is an RPG based on an alternate Earth where an evil wizard used the bloody fury of the Crusades to crack open a rift in reality and unleash magic on the world. As a result, Richard the Lionhearted and Saladin were forced to join forces to combat the new monstrous menace that invaded our planet, as all manner of mythical creatures sprang forth and new supernatural powers suddenly flowed into the 12th century world. Now it is the 16th century, but while the figures we associate with the Renaissance are still busily working on their works, in Lionheart they are also trying to survive in a world gripped by both politicking and mythical evil. Unfortunately now a mysterious figure wants to take the rift and rend it fully open, and he has all manner of cults, monsters, demons, and dragons to support him in his endeavor. To make matters worse, his agents are now controlling the diplomatic actions of the English throne, and they are threatening war with Spain. And you, the distant relative of Richard the Lionhearted, are now stuck in a slave camp just outside of Barcelona, which is in the tight grip of the Inquisition. Good luck.

Yes, Lionheart plays a bit fast and loose with history. Over the course of the game, you'll meet or befriend the likes of Leonardo da Vinci, William Shakespeare, Miguel de Cervantes, Nostradamus, Galileo Galilei, and Niccolo Machiavelli. You'll have to travel from Spain to France, to England, and eventually to Persia. You'll slay or outwit demons, dragons, druids, and the living dead, all within the confines of a modified SPECIAL system from Fallout. And you will supposedly be given the option to do this in a variety of ways... But you shouldn't. Trust me on this, if you play this game, build a range-based combat character. For reasons.

Those reasons are Lionheart's troubled development history. You see, Lionheart was in development in 2003 from a company called Reflexive Entertainment, with backing from Black Isle Studios, a division of Interplay. Interplay had gone through a series of bad years since the late 1990s, and by 2003 was trying to find ways to save money and cut loses. As a result, Lionheart's development was rushed, causing severe issues with game balance, particularly in later sections of the game. Only four months after Lionheart's release, Interplay shut down Black Isle Studios entirely, thus ending the run of one of the best PC RPG developer/publisher houses in the business.

For that reason, Lionheart has a reputation for being difficult for non-range characters to get through the final areas. As someone who did it with a non-range character, I can fully say that it deserves that reputation. 2/3 of this game is well-balanced, allowing characters who are designed around diplomacy, magic, thievery, melee, or range to excel and get through different areas using different means. But in the final third, England invades Spain, and you must move through their portals into the home of the druids, then fight your way through to Persia where the druids' real master resides. England is hard for a non-fighter. The desert would be impossible for anyone not equipped for combat and rough for most that are. And after the desert comes the temple, where the difficulty just gets higher as melee characters now have to rely on superior skills to make it through certain assassin-laden floors. Just remember, the desert is the crux, the place where the men are separated from the boys, where your combat skills will be tried. In the final dungeon, your abilities to aggro enemies, pull and misdirect ranged and caster-based enemies, use items and magic effectively, and exercise caution will be tested. If you cannot handle yourself, you will not survive the gauntlets that you must traverse.

I mean that about gauntlets. I made it through with a two-hander melee build, and it was rough. The game forces you to run through corridors as hordes of enemy archers and casters rain pain down upon you and acid fills up the floor behind you, forcing you to continue pressing forward until your likely demise. Range characters can pick off enemy archers and casters from a distance to thin their forces before hand. Melee? Good luck. Diplomatic? You're screwed. Thieves? I don't know how high your sneak has to be to make it past, but I doubt you'll have it high enough. The funny thing is, the major bosses in this part of the game can all be defeated through diplomacy if you focus on it, and one of the absolute best endings is the diplomatic one! But good luck getting there. My character was a hoss, and I still had to make careful selection of potions, scrolls, and magic buffs to survive. And then there was the final boss, which is a beast of a fight. I had already been carrying gear to protect myself from fire due to the previous boss. I'm glad I didn't get rid of that stuff, because I would never have beaten the final boss without a Fire damage resistance rate of 98%.

But that is the final third. The rest of the game is marvelous, which makes the final third that much more grating. There are many ways to circumvent the challenges you face, and it is all backed by excellent music, top notch voice acting, and writing that is well done. Quests offer a variety of means to get through them, and the world feels vibrant and alive, even if it is harassed on all sides by all manner of monsters.

If given proper development time and playtesting, Lionheart would likely have ended up being another jewel in Black Isle's crown, but in its current form, it's the bastard child that could have been. For RPG fans who enjoyed other Black Isle developed/published games(read: FALLOUT 2, BALDUR'S GATE, BALDUR'S GATE 2, ICEWIND DALE, ICEWIND DALE 2, PLANESCAPE: TORMENT), it is worth trying out, but more for its pedigree and to see the highlights than to really finish it. If you do decide to try for the ending, well, bow is the way to go, plain and simple. But if you build your character wrong...well, you can always export your character and start the game over. I beat it at level 43, so a second playthrough would likely give you all ample opportunity to reach the 50s or 60s and easily dominate whatever gets in your way.
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by Blu Mon May 04, 2015 10:24 am

Exhuminator wrote:I was not trolling, I was just too tired to go into detail...
snip.


I figured as much, that it was late in the evening. I agree with everything you said, the labor of love, where Deus Ex was influential in current games, etc. Cheers though.
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by prfsnl_gmr Mon May 04, 2015 11:51 am

1. Cut the Rope (3DS)
2. Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction (PS3)
3. Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth (XBOX)
4. Jewel Link Chronicles: Mountains of Madness (NDS)
5. Super Mario 3D World (WIIU)
6. Mario Kart 7 (3DS)
7. Kirby Triple Deluxe (3DS)
8. Gunman Clive (3DS)
9. Child of Light (WIIU)
10. Gunman Clive 2 (3DS)
11. Mighty Switch Force! Hyper Drive Edition (WIIU)
12. Shifting World (3DS)
13. VVVVVV (3DS)
14. Mega Man 9 (PS3)
15. Mighty Switch Force 2 (WIIU)
16. Castle of Illusion Starring Mickey Mouse (PS3)
17. Castle Crashers (PS3)
18. Pushmo (3DS)
19. Steamworld Dig (3DS)
20. The Unfinished Swan (PS3)


Steamworld Dig is an incredibly addictive mash-up of Boulder Dash, Dig Dug, and Metroid. In it, you play a steam-powered robot who inherits a mine from his uncle. You explore the depths of the mine in a manner similar to Dig Dug, Mr. Driller, or Rockford, fighting enemies and minig ore that you can trade for upgrades to your equipment. As you go deeper into the mine, the enemies become more difficult and the ore becomes more valuable. You also need to return to the surface frequently to trade in your ore and to recharge your health, light, and water. Accordingly, you have to be mindful of your escape route when you proceed into the depths. I absolutely adored this game, and I highly recommend it to anyone with a 3DS.

The Unfinished Swan is a beautiful, firt-person puzzle/platformer with a charming story-book aesthetic. It is not particularly challenging, and it only last a few hours. It is perfectly-paced, however, and I really enjoyed it. (My children also enjoyed it tremendously.) The hidden balloons scattered throughout the game give you a reason to revisit its beautiful world, and I also highly recommend this game to anyone with a PS3.

Now...Off to the Summer Gaming Challenge!
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Re: Games Beaten 2015

by MrPopo Mon May 04, 2015 9:04 pm

1. Painkiller - PC
2. Front Mission 4 - PS2
3. Wasteland 2 - PC
4. Arcanum - PC
5. X-COM Terror from the Deep - PC
6. Military Madness - TurboGrafx-16
7. Unreal - PC
8. Shadowrun - SNES
9. Warcraft III - PC
10. Dungeon Keeper - PC
11. Final Fantasy X-2 HD - PS3
12. Descent - PC
13. Quake Mission Pack 2 - Dissolution of Eternity - PC
14. Quake 2 Mission Pack 2 - Ground Zero - PC
15. Sokobond - PC
16. Hybrid Heaven - N64
17. Sonic the Hedgehog - Genesis
18. Castlevania - NES
19. Super Castlevania IV - SNES
20. Castlevania III - NES
21. Castlevania II - NES
22. Castlevania Rondo of Blood - Turbo CD
23. Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders - PC
24. Fractal - PC
25. Kirby's Adventure - NES
26. Pillars of Eternity - PC
27. Bioshock 2: Minerva's Den - PC
28. Command & Conquer Generals: Zero Hour - PC
29. Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves - NES
30. Punch-Out!! - NES
31. Doom 3 - PC
32. The Even More Incredible Machine - PC
33. Contra - NES
34. Dark Forces - PC
35. Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II - PC

It's interesting reading Ack's feelings on this, because I differ with him on so many of the points. This is a weird sophomore effort between Dark Forces and Jedi Outcast, the latter being the point where they really nail down the "play as a Jedi" aspect. This game has kinda crappy gunplay and kinda crappy Jedi.

The first thing that bothered me is how loose everything feels. Part of that could be some weirdness running it on modern hardware, but the game just has this loose and slippery feeling to it, which makes the gunplay feel kinda bad. But that's ok, cause I'd be getting a lightsaber and some force powers and everything would be better. But it wasn't.

The game really gives out the force powers in bits and spurts and you never really feel like you're a Jedi until the very end of the game. So most of your lightsaber time is just using it as an awesome melee weapon that sometimes blocks enemy shots. The only thing that makes it viable is the fact that the level designs are such that you can sprint through and skip half the enemies. The ones you do end up having to fight are in such close quarters that your lightsaber isn't at a disadvantage. But the Jedi Outcast lightsaber is heads and shoulders above this one.

Ack really liked the level designs but I didn't; they were really sprawling and mazelike and it never felt like they made sense, which hurt my normal directional sense. At times it feels like the level designers were given a box size to put he level in and a certain number of lineal feet of level to make and so everything switches back on itself and it feels like you keep retreading over the same ground even though all of it is new. There does seem to be an attempt at adding some alternate paths based on how many levels of force jump you have, but because you need to manually put points in it the whole thing feels needless; Deus Ex's alternate paths this is not.

And then there's the boss battles. Since this is their first attempt at using the lighsaber this ends up being a series of jousting matches, due to the mechanics. Now, I'd learned how to do so in many hours of online Duels in the other Jedi Knight games so it wasn't too bad, but unlike the other games you don't have a repertoire of moves that you can use to gain advantage over the opponent; it's all circle strafe and dart in for one strike before retreating. And the final boss is a grindy mess with way too much HP given the combat system.

Normally I'd pick up the expansion for play but I think I'd rather give things a rest for now. I didn't dig this game enough to want more.
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