Do we have any retro Macintosh enthusiasts here?
I'd like to know more about retro Macintosh computers. Specifically ones from the early to mid 90s. Does anyone know of any guides out there? Maybe something similar to Racketboy's 101 guides. If not, can anyone give me a basic rundown?
It just seems like there's so many models out there, and it's a little daunting to someone that has never owned a Macintosh. I'm thinking something from the mid 90s might be fun to own for retro gaming. But are there some models more desirable than others? Or some models that are too limited in upgrade options, or have upgrades that are too expensive, etc?
From what I understand, Macs from the 90s are known to have bad caps (like so many things from the 90s). A recap is not an issue. What about disc drives? I've seen in random repair videos that the HDDs are Apple branded. Are they proprietary in any way? Or are they just PATA or SCSI, and a replacement is straight forward? What about the floppy drive? Standard 1.44MB drive?
Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
Re: A Guide to Retro Macintosh Hardware ?
It'd be cool to see one here, but I'm not very familiar with repairs etc. I also hear that there's a large number of variants throughout the years, and I'm completely unfamiliar with most of them. I've owned a few old Macs, but my usage is only installing the latest OS possible and running games. I've never done any hardware upgrades, and I think the older ones rolled their own variants of hardware with proprietary bits, but I'm not completely sure.
I still have one of those Macintosh SE AIOs with the light-blue monochrone CRT and floppy drive.
My only plan for the SE is to put a raspberry Pi in it and extend the bottom front to include arcade controls. My brother is pretty talented at working with plastics and epoxies so I was just going to ask him to do the case-mod. I'm hung up on the 22kHz video circuit. I want to implement greyscale, but despite some people on the internet claiming to have done it, I'm a little lost still on how to interface with the CRT. I know enough about creating mode-lines that I can make a PC or Raspberry Pi output the right signal, but building a new video amplifier from scratch is a bit beyond my skill level.
I still have one of those Macintosh SE AIOs with the light-blue monochrone CRT and floppy drive.
My only plan for the SE is to put a raspberry Pi in it and extend the bottom front to include arcade controls. My brother is pretty talented at working with plastics and epoxies so I was just going to ask him to do the case-mod. I'm hung up on the 22kHz video circuit. I want to implement greyscale, but despite some people on the internet claiming to have done it, I'm a little lost still on how to interface with the CRT. I know enough about creating mode-lines that I can make a PC or Raspberry Pi output the right signal, but building a new video amplifier from scratch is a bit beyond my skill level.
Re: Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
I don't know much about repairs, but I can speak some about retro Mac hardware, because I was a total enthusiast.
But it also depends on how retro you're going. Like, most of the older Macs used SCSI for the HD, but they used SCSI-1. There are a lot of SCSI-2 cards for Macs, however. There were a few models that used IDE until around the iMac when Apple committed to IDE and USB.
As for floppy drives, the Mac uses a proprietary floppy drive, though it uses standard 1.44 floppies. It will not accept a standard PC 1.44 floppy.
If you really want a great mid-late 90's Mac, look for the Power Computer Mac clones. Those are fantastic machines that are durable and upgradeable. That's what I had in college. That said, you have to decide if you want PowerPC-era Mac or 68k era Mac. The PowerPC Macs do a pretty good job running 68k code, but it's probably better to pick a position and stick to it. Once I know what you're interested in I can make a better rec.
But it also depends on how retro you're going. Like, most of the older Macs used SCSI for the HD, but they used SCSI-1. There are a lot of SCSI-2 cards for Macs, however. There were a few models that used IDE until around the iMac when Apple committed to IDE and USB.
As for floppy drives, the Mac uses a proprietary floppy drive, though it uses standard 1.44 floppies. It will not accept a standard PC 1.44 floppy.
If you really want a great mid-late 90's Mac, look for the Power Computer Mac clones. Those are fantastic machines that are durable and upgradeable. That's what I had in college. That said, you have to decide if you want PowerPC-era Mac or 68k era Mac. The PowerPC Macs do a pretty good job running 68k code, but it's probably better to pick a position and stick to it. Once I know what you're interested in I can make a better rec.
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Re: Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
I'm really not too concerned with repairs. I mean, I'd rather pay less to get something that I'd have to recap myself than to pay more for something that's confirmed working. With condition and repairs, I'd be more concerned about the case. I know the plastics can get brittle when they yellow, so stuff like broken hinges is annoying and the kind of thing I'd like to avoid if possible. But knowing that something yellowed will most likely be the better bargain, that's probably what I'd end up getting if I decide to get one.
As for the SCSI drives, I've just learned of a few solid state replacement options. So if I ended up with a retro Mac that uses a SCSI HDD, and if that HDD crapped out, I'd probably most likely do an SD replacement. There was one that I saw, I think it's called Blue SCSI, from what I understand you can use it as a complete HDD replacement in a Mac and the SD card would be usable on a modern Windows computer.
OK, so I knew that the standard 1.44 MB 3.5" floppies would come Mac or IBM formatted when you would buy them new. But you're saying I couldn't use a standard 3.5" FDD form a PC in a Mac? That sucks. Well at least from what I've seen those drives don't seem to crap out.
I think I would want to get something with a CD drive. From what I've seen of the older Macs, they have a bay to add a CD-ROM drive. But you need a proprietary bezel and tray to mount it. I've heard those parts can be hard to come by. I don't know if there's any 3D print options for them. But if it ends up being a hassle to add a CD-ROM drive, then I'd probably opt to hunt for a Mac that already has one. I know there were external CD drives, but I've heard that those are also getting harder to acquire.
As for the Motorola 68k or PowerPC CPU, I suppose it mostly depends on what games I'd like to play? For games that originally ran on the 68k, what's compatibility like on a PowerPC Mac? Is it hit or miss?
As for the SCSI drives, I've just learned of a few solid state replacement options. So if I ended up with a retro Mac that uses a SCSI HDD, and if that HDD crapped out, I'd probably most likely do an SD replacement. There was one that I saw, I think it's called Blue SCSI, from what I understand you can use it as a complete HDD replacement in a Mac and the SD card would be usable on a modern Windows computer.
OK, so I knew that the standard 1.44 MB 3.5" floppies would come Mac or IBM formatted when you would buy them new. But you're saying I couldn't use a standard 3.5" FDD form a PC in a Mac? That sucks. Well at least from what I've seen those drives don't seem to crap out.
I think I would want to get something with a CD drive. From what I've seen of the older Macs, they have a bay to add a CD-ROM drive. But you need a proprietary bezel and tray to mount it. I've heard those parts can be hard to come by. I don't know if there's any 3D print options for them. But if it ends up being a hassle to add a CD-ROM drive, then I'd probably opt to hunt for a Mac that already has one. I know there were external CD drives, but I've heard that those are also getting harder to acquire.
As for the Motorola 68k or PowerPC CPU, I suppose it mostly depends on what games I'd like to play? For games that originally ran on the 68k, what's compatibility like on a PowerPC Mac? Is it hit or miss?
Re: Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
PowerPC Macs actually do a pretty incredible job running 68k Mac code. The real problem is OS support. There's a lot of classic Mac content, especially in B&W, that needs System 6 to really run well. My old PowerWave clone ran System 7.5.2 out of the box, I think. 7.5.x and up had a lot of problems with older System 6 apps. Some ran just fine, but others did not.
For playing older games in black and white, the most classic way to experience things would be probably on an SE/30. It's one of the compact all-in-one Macs with a 9" B&W built-in screen. It's the most powerful of the classic all-in-ones, with an FPU, PDS slot (which can accept a video card for either greyscale on the internal screen or color on an external), and the ability to replace the SCSI drive and alter the RAM. Make sure it has a 1.44 MB drive. Some early models had only 800k drives. The SE/30 can boot either System 6 or System 7 up to 7.5. System 6 runs surprisingly well from boot floppies...
https://lowendmac.com/1989/mac-se30/
The most powerful way to do classic pre-040 Mac gaming would be a Mac IIfx. It was a beastie, running the fastest 68030 around. It could do color no probs. It comfortably ran up to System 7.6.1. But it also used a lot of unique hardware and would probably be a bitch to keep equipped and running.
https://lowendmac.com/1990/macintosh-iifx/
A better option is probably the IIci. It's not as fast, but it is still pretty fast and cheaper and easier to operate.
https://lowendmac.com/1989/mac-iici/
For newer classic Mac gaming you probably want to step up to a PowerPC Mac. Most of the PowerPC Macs should run 68040 series code just fine in code emulation. A faster 604 model is probably a good mid-point. I cannot recommend the PowerWave or PowerTower line enough. You can flash the BIOS on an old Voodoo 3 if you want to be bold and play some 3D accelerated Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament (not sure why you would want to do that on Mac, though). You'd probably want to install a CPU upgrade daughterboard, though, and add more RAM. But since the system has 8 RAM slots, that's no problem at all.
For playing older games in black and white, the most classic way to experience things would be probably on an SE/30. It's one of the compact all-in-one Macs with a 9" B&W built-in screen. It's the most powerful of the classic all-in-ones, with an FPU, PDS slot (which can accept a video card for either greyscale on the internal screen or color on an external), and the ability to replace the SCSI drive and alter the RAM. Make sure it has a 1.44 MB drive. Some early models had only 800k drives. The SE/30 can boot either System 6 or System 7 up to 7.5. System 6 runs surprisingly well from boot floppies...
https://lowendmac.com/1989/mac-se30/
The most powerful way to do classic pre-040 Mac gaming would be a Mac IIfx. It was a beastie, running the fastest 68030 around. It could do color no probs. It comfortably ran up to System 7.6.1. But it also used a lot of unique hardware and would probably be a bitch to keep equipped and running.
https://lowendmac.com/1990/macintosh-iifx/
A better option is probably the IIci. It's not as fast, but it is still pretty fast and cheaper and easier to operate.
https://lowendmac.com/1989/mac-iici/
For newer classic Mac gaming you probably want to step up to a PowerPC Mac. Most of the PowerPC Macs should run 68040 series code just fine in code emulation. A faster 604 model is probably a good mid-point. I cannot recommend the PowerWave or PowerTower line enough. You can flash the BIOS on an old Voodoo 3 if you want to be bold and play some 3D accelerated Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament (not sure why you would want to do that on Mac, though). You'd probably want to install a CPU upgrade daughterboard, though, and add more RAM. But since the system has 8 RAM slots, that's no problem at all.
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Re: Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
Ziggy587 wrote:I'm really not too concerned with repairs. I mean, I'd rather pay less to get something that I'd have to recap myself than to pay more for something that's confirmed working. With condition and repairs, I'd be more concerned about the case. I know the plastics can get brittle when they yellow, so stuff like broken hinges is annoying and the kind of thing I'd like to avoid if possible. But knowing that something yellowed will most likely be the better bargain, that's probably what I'd end up getting if I decide to get one.
Wouldn't you be worried about potential components being destroyed by busted caps by going for non-working equipment?
Re: Tell Me About Retro Macintosh Hardware
Thanks, marurun. I'll do a little poking around and then I'll probably have some more questions!
Actually, I'm more worried about the systems that use those damn NiCad barrel batteries. When those leak, the damage is more severe than when the caps leak. While a leaking cap is no good, they don't always cause massive damage. But yeah, it's sort of a risk/reward situation. What I'd be most afraid of is my unfamiliarity with Macs. It's harder to troubleshoot something when you don't know what normal behavior is. That and shipping. Some eBay sellers are clueless about shipping items. A damaged case could be a harder repair than a recap.
As for leaking electrolytic capacitors causing damage, I'm not sure what the important factors are. The specs of the caps, how long they've been leaking, environmental factors? Or how densely packed the caps are in a spot on the PCB. Or how well constructed the PCB is? I don't know if you saw the thread, but I recently recapped three Game Gears. All three had leaking caps and were not in working order. Although in a few spots the corrosion was hard to clean off the board, there was actually no damage to the PCB or any components. I didn't even lift any pads! I've watched a couple of recap videos on Macs and it seems to be similar. Even when there's a small puddle under or next to the cap, there doesn't seem to be any real damage to the PCB. Maybe it really depends how long it's been leaking for. The longer the electrolyte sits on the PCB, the more it will eat away at it.
opa wrote:Wouldn't you be worried about potential components being destroyed by busted caps by going for non-working equipment?
Actually, I'm more worried about the systems that use those damn NiCad barrel batteries. When those leak, the damage is more severe than when the caps leak. While a leaking cap is no good, they don't always cause massive damage. But yeah, it's sort of a risk/reward situation. What I'd be most afraid of is my unfamiliarity with Macs. It's harder to troubleshoot something when you don't know what normal behavior is. That and shipping. Some eBay sellers are clueless about shipping items. A damaged case could be a harder repair than a recap.
As for leaking electrolytic capacitors causing damage, I'm not sure what the important factors are. The specs of the caps, how long they've been leaking, environmental factors? Or how densely packed the caps are in a spot on the PCB. Or how well constructed the PCB is? I don't know if you saw the thread, but I recently recapped three Game Gears. All three had leaking caps and were not in working order. Although in a few spots the corrosion was hard to clean off the board, there was actually no damage to the PCB or any components. I didn't even lift any pads! I've watched a couple of recap videos on Macs and it seems to be similar. Even when there's a small puddle under or next to the cap, there doesn't seem to be any real damage to the PCB. Maybe it really depends how long it's been leaking for. The longer the electrolyte sits on the PCB, the more it will eat away at it.