Classic WRPGs that are still playable today

[marurun]

Hi all,

I've been thinking lately about just how important WRPGs (western RPGs beginning with the early computer RPG traditions) were not only to modern action games but JRPGs as well. Stuff like Ultima and Wizardry is the root of the modern JRPG, for example. But way too many people have no experience with that WRPG tradition outside of modern action titles like Skyrim, Fallout 4, the Witcher 3, or BioWare fare like Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights, and World of Warcraft. But there's this incredibly deep and wide ocean of cool stuff going way back that is critical to understanding how we got where we are now.

There's a problem, though. A lot of those old WRPGs that laid the ground work are for various reasons unplayable or inaccessible to gamers these days. Not many are willing to boot up an Apple or c64 emulator, swap virtual disks, and either find cracked images or look up the extra materials that often constituted copy protection. Not only that, but many early RPGs did not care if they were unforgiving or obtuse, and memory and data constraints made a great excuse for not adding in necessary information.

So with those barriers, how's a modern gamer supposed to come to know and love the history and legacy of the WRPG? That's what I want your help with! I'd like us to brainstorm about which WRPGs are playable and potentially enjoyable today. I know there are several folks here on the boards who play them, and I definitely played a bunch back in my day (yes, I'm that old - shut up). And thanks to GoG, a lot of the PC versions of the classics will run on modern systems with no (or few, at least) issues. So let's dig in and start compiling a lit of great WRPGs that people should and can play! I'll put my own thoughts into the next post.

[marurun]

So a similar topic to this came up on the Insert Credit forums, so I'll start with an edited and expanded version of what I shared there:

Ultima VI: the False Prophet (1990) - Ultima IV is often considered the most important traditional Ultima title, but Ultima VI is more attractive and more playable and equally quality. VI is probably the best way to get the classic Ultima experience. Ultima was a major influence on early JRPGs along with the Wizardry games. It could be argued Ultima's combat was what lead to modern Final Fantasy-style JRPG combat.

Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993) - The first UU was one of the earliest first-person games to offer a 3D environment and it did it pretty well considering the tech. It was massively influential on Looking Glass’s later works, Ion Storm, Bethesda, and others. But it's also pretty clunky. UUII is also a bit clunky, but less so. More polished and more accessible means you might enjoy this one a bit more.

Wizardry? - I don't actually know if any of the classic Wizardry titles hold up today. I'm not sure they do, though I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Honestly, Japan has continued making these games, and it may be the Japanese take on them is the best way to approach them.

SSI Gold Box Games (seriously, play at least one)
Pool of Radiance (1988) - A revelation in early WRPGs. Combined first-person dungeons with grid-based tactical combat and the AD&D rule set. Sold in massive numbers and single-handedly rocketed SSI from a boutique wargames developer to a mainstream publisher, at least for at time. PoR is a little rough around the edges in places but is still pretty playable and a fantastic game. Characters can be imported to the next game, Curse of the Azure Bonds. But if PoR feels a little too rough around the edges…

Champions of Krynn (1990) - This Dragonlance title is a much more polished introductory title than PoR. It benefits from a couple extra years or knowledge and is a great entry to the Gold Box engine and AD&D-based RPGs. Characters can be imported to the next title, Death Knight of Krynn.

There's also a companion program you can run to enhance the Gold Box games. Mrpopo knows more and I hope he elaborates on it.

Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra (1991) - A great first-person WRPG in which you explore towns, dungeons, and the overworld at large from a first-person view. You can see enemies at a distance and engage in missile combat before engaging. The graphics are fantastic, especially for the time. There were even some good console ports. Definitely playable for modern gamers, if still a bit on the difficult side at times.

[MrPopo]

Those who follow the Games Beaten threads know I've gone through a ton of old WRPGs over the past several years. So here's my take on things:

Bard's Tale - Most notable for being an evolution on Wizardry, the original trilogy does suffer from the harsh balance decisions of the time (you don't get access to healing spells until level 2). However, there was a modern rerelease of the trilogy (Bard's Tale Trilogy) that still maintains the original gameplay but does a balance pass so you don't get kicked in the teeth as hard, as well as modern conveniences like an auto map. So I'd say the rerelease crosses over into "playable".

The Elder Scrolls - The early games in this series are a very mixed bag. For a modern gamer you could definitely start with Morrowind (which still has one of my favorite settings), but you could also give Arena a good go. Arena is them first really experimenting with the idea of a vast world. However, most of that content is generated on the fly, so it's completely optional and just a way to screw around in the world. The actual main quest follows a specific set of rules of how to progress (follow a handful of talking clues until you get the location of a key dungeon). This means the systems end up being fairly approachable, with the biggest negative feature being just how damn big the towns are for finding anything. By contrast, Daggerfall adds in too much other stuff that resembles all the side content we would see in Morrowind and later games, but without the polish that makes that stuff playable. And the main quest dungeons (as with all dungeons in that game) are godawful layout-wise. Personally, I think Arena is still playable but Daggerfall should be avoided by people who aren't going for completeness.

Eye of the Beholder - Thanks to Legend of Grimrock, the real time first person dungeon crawlers that were codified by Dungeon Master are back on people's radars as a viable genre. The Eye of the Beholder trilogy is a really well done version of that genre, with a good handle on balance and some nice dungeon layouts that don't get too deep into evil puzzle territory. The main sticking point would be some of the weird parts of the AD&D rules (which will be a running theme with WRPGs), but that just requires you to look up how that stuff works ahead of time.

Gold Box series - The informal name for this big series of games by SSI, it can be divided into four series. First is the Pool of Radiance series, second is the Krynn series, the third is the Savage Frontier series, and the last is the Buck Rogers series. They all consist of first person dungeon crawling and grid based tactical combat, with each series letting you import characters from the previous game in the series, as it is the continuing adventures of those characters. The later games in each series tend to not be as good as the earlier ones, but that's mostly an artifact of the AD&D power curve. As Maru mentioned, there is an addon called the Gold Box Companion, which really enhances the playability of them. Aside from an auto mapper feature, it lets you adjust some of the mechanics to be more forgiving (related to rest and where you can level) and allows you to fix some of the dumb parts of AD&D rules (such as removing demihuman level limits).

Lands of Lore - Done by the same devs as Eye of the Beholder, the first game plays quite similar but without the shackles of the AD&D rules. The next two games mess with the formula more and are not as well regarded. I definitely think the first game is worth playing.

Might and Magic - One of the longest running series of WRPGs, the first couple games are probably too rough for a modern gamer, but by the time the third game hits they've gotten the balance figured out much better. The third through sixth games all are running on the same engine, and provide 2D first person movement with turn based combat and wide worlds to explore. The sixth through ninth games switch to 3D worlds and free movement, as well as the ability to select turn based or real time combat (interestingly, turn based is easier most of the time, but certain weapons make real time combat a breeze). The transition to 3D is also a point where the series starts to go downhill, as only the sixth and seventh games hold up. Start with either the third or sixth game, but each is going to give you a different experience (but subsequent games build on that experience).

Ultima - Alongside Wizardry, Ultima helped form a huge number of RPG game tropes and would be one of the primary influencers of Dragon Quest. That said, the first three games MASSIVELY show their age, and are not worth playing except for historical curiosities. The second three games are when the series actually gets good. Now, there's a lot of arguments to be made as to the starting point, but personally I have to say go with the fourth game. While the later games in that trilogy resemble modern games more as technology moves on, starting with the fourth both sets up a big part of the worldbuilding and gives you a ton of information that can then be used again in the fifth game. And personally I think the technology upgrade of the sixth game ends up making it harder to control and navigate, as you have these large sprites in a small play area; it's the problem many Game Boy games had. You also won't get nearly the same narrative weight to the sixth game's story without playing the fourth game. Moving forward from there, the seventh game is sort of a technical culmination of the series, though I have some qualms on the game design end of things (with seven part two alleviating some of that). Then the series goes off the rails with the eighth game, and the nineth game is garbage. So I'd say play four through both parts of seven.

Ultima Underworld - I separate this out because the first game only got a light coat of paint to make it Ultima, while the second game does sit as a decent story entry between the two parts of Ultima VII (though it doesn't get really referenced in the main series). These two games were pioneers of real time free moving first person games (John Carmek saw a demo of the first game and was inspired to pull off Wolfenstein 3D) and the world interactivity would be a big influence on the later Elder Scrolls games. Each game has its strengths and weaknesses compared to the other, and don't actually have ties to each other, so you could start with either one. Personally I'd recommend starting with the first, as the second game has some early balance problems as well as some obtuse puzzles and dungeon design.

Wasteland - The progenitor to Fallout, Wasteland definitely has a lot of rough edges, though there was a modern rerelease to celebrate the release of Wasteland II which tries to add some quality of life stuff, like having the "read paragraph X in the book" sections as hotlinks in game. The game is also an early example of choice systems in RPGs, with the PCs being given an early choice of going to help one of two settlements and the other one getting taken out while you're busy with the first. I definitely would recommend looking up a guide for character building, as there are a lot of useless skill choices available.

[marurun]

I wonder if it would be possible to devise a little tour through WRPG history in only like 4 or 5 games.

[MrPopo]

In terms of getting an overview of how it evolved while still not dipping into the early jank, it would be something like Bards Tale 1, Ultima IV, Eye of the Beholder, Pool of Radiance, and then TES: Arena. I choose Arena over Ultima Underworld because it hits the open world stuff as a sort of capstone.

[marurun]

Given my predilections I think I'd be more likely to go Champions of Krynn, Might & Magic III, Ultima 6, and then maybe Eye of the Beholder. I totally get your thinking, though. Do you think Bard's Tale is approachable enough?

[MrPopo]

I'd say yes if you play the modern port. It has just enough adjustments done that it captures the original without having the same level of early game hell. The main reason I suggested that over M&M 3 is that it presents a more pure turn and grid based dungeon crawling experience without being as evil as Wizardry.

As for the others, you can definitely do Krynn rather than Pool, I just am not a huge fan of the Dragonlance setting and the tweaks it does to the base ruleset might not be everyone's cup of tea, while Forgotten Realms is D&D standard. And I get where you're coming from on U6, but I do think U4 is the point where the series hits the "still playable" point (U3 gets close, but early game hell). And U5 and U6 both build on top of U4's story in a way that makes me feel that it is important to play first. U4 also more directly demonstrates how the Ultima series begat Dragon Warrior, whereas U6 is SNES level graphics, so it's too late in the game for that.

[marurun]

I'd say yes if you play the modern port. It has just enough adjustments done that it captures the original without having the same level of early game hell. The main reason I suggested that over M&M 3 is that it presents a more pure turn and grid based dungeon crawling experience without being as evil as Wizardry.

As for the others, you can definitely do Krynn rather than Pool, I just am not a huge fan of the Dragonlance setting and the tweaks it does to the base ruleset might not be everyone's cup of tea, while Forgotten Realms is D&D standard. And I get where you're coming from on U6, but I do think U4 is the point where the series hits the "still playable" point (U3 gets close, but early game hell). And U5 and U6 both build on top of U4's story in a way that makes me feel that it is important to play first. U4 also more directly demonstrates how the Ultima series begat Dragon Warrior, whereas U6 is SNES level graphics, so it's too late in the game for that.

I didn't know that about the modern port of Bard's Tale. I'll have to give it a try. I think one major advantage Krynn has over Pool is that Pool is missing two classes and has way to god-damn many polearms. It's pointless and confusing. Krynn feels like a more polished work in many regards, even as it loses some of that exploration and mystery.

How would you feel about Ultima if someone were to only play one?

[MrPopo]

Personally, I think Ultima IV is the best one. I really find that Ultima VI and VII have sprites that are too large for the viewing area, and VII Part 1 spent too many resources on "look at all the random tedious shit you can do" and not enough time on making a solid main story. Part 2 fixes that part, but the sprite issue remains. And while Ultima V is a refinement of IV's gameplay, jumping into it is like jumping into Empire without watching New Hope first.

[Ack]

I agree about Ultima IV being the better starting point than Ultima VI. Not that I don't think VI isn't more approachable, but it may be too much in terms of making it hard to go back, and it's the end of a trilogy cycle as far as story arc is concerned. IV, V, and VI are all more playable than either the experimental 1-3 or the fading from relevance that makes up 7-9.

Might & Magic 3 and 6 are the best choices there. They are mechanically different enough that I think either one could be used as an entrance point. Frankly, their styles are so different, and the M&M overall story is so batshit, that either is fine as an entrance. But 3 is better to play before 4 and 5 (which are meant to be played combined) and 6 is better to play before later entries. The original Might & Magic is rudimentary in many forms and not easily approachable for a modern RPG fan, and while 2 is definitely a step up in evolution towards 3, it demands party porting and has some obnoxious problems of its own.

Wizardry is right out if you are looking for easier RPGs for modern genre fans to check out. They're demanding, obtuse, and frankly cruel in some instances. You might be able to say 5 and beyond from the mainline are easier to get into, but when I think of Wizardry, I mainly think of 1-4 as the genre defining benchmark.

For pure D&D, Pool of Radiance is where I lean, but Krynn is an acceptable alternative. If you want to continue down this lineage from Gold Box to later 2nd Edition titles, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands is a step forward in modernization. Yes, it offers some unique mechanics and races based on the Dark Sun setting, but the core of the gameplay is what feels like the step from PoR to Baldur's Gate...and Baldur's Gate is where you want to go to understand where D&D games were at the end of the 1990s. It's also the start of the Infinity Engine era which bridges into 3rd edition D&D games.

Eye of the Beholder splits off in the pure dungeon crawler direction, and if you're really not interested in an overarching story across multiple games and just want a quick fix, Dungeon Hack will give you this kind of experience. It has a lot more random generation for single character adventures and customization options, so you have a lot to explore if you end up taking to the gameplay. And if you do enjoy that kind of dungeon delving and want to see how it evolved into a more open world and real time style, there are the Ravenloft games and the one-off Menzoberranzan. The biggest downside here is that Menzo came out between the two Ravenloft games, so going back to Strahd's Possession may feel like a step backwards.