mjmjr25 wrote:Are you telling me you inspect every game you purchase? So yeah, any rules that make it easier to buy here are good rules seeing as pretty much any online store is out now for me when it comes to SNES / NES
Do you only buy expensive games now? Are you seriously worried about $5 and $10 games? And if you are Snes and nes games are easy to open. If a person was selling little samson and unwilling to open it, they are the ones with a problem.
Last edited by pepharytheworm on Sat May 24, 2014 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
The number of NES/SNES/Gen games that would even be "worth" bootlegging (ie: paying for materials, creating the bootleg, creating sale threads/auctions) is absurdly small.
BoneSnapDeez wrote:The number of NES/SNES/Gen games that would even be "worth" bootlegging (ie: paying for materials, creating the bootleg, creating sale threads/auctions) is absurdly small.
Just not accurate. As Onyx showed us, he had what, 30+ GEN boots, including a couple common games. Go look for any mainstream DS/GBA game - they only sell for $20 original and yet the market is flooded with boots that sell for $10.
We can be pretty confident the first is a boot, more than 10+ available, shipping from China. What about the second? Is there any discernable difference? Is it labeled as a boot? Does the price suggest it's a boot? They have the exact same label, serial number and color saturation. If you think this is limited to a handful of titles, no offense, but you're just wrong. It costs nothing to produce these in China and our market is flooded.
I'm still wondering if someone can explain an aversion to marking a cart with a notch, or the word repro, to make sure they stay visible as repros on the secondary market - if the only intent is to play the game on original hardware as many have stated in this thread, surely they'd have no issue putting some sort of identifier on the cart before selling it here.
mjmjr25 wrote: Sega NAOMI wasn't bootlegged until it was (just in the last 6 months).
So what have they been making besides the Ikaruga cart? It just seems pointless when most carts are $50 to $70 but as trends have shown that is enough profit for some people. How did they get the molds for the case?
Luke wrote:After 23 pages and nearly 70% of votes made for option #2, isn't this thread becoming a bit silly?
Label them as repros, ban those who scam, move on.
This thread has been interesting, but as someone who regularly conducts transactions through this forum - and as someone who voted for option #2 - I also think the conversation has dragged on a bit.
You guys don't have every item I want so I have to use Ebay. Please think of the greater good here.
mjmjr25 wrote: If you think this is limited to a handful of titles, no offense, but you're just wrong. It costs nothing to produce these in China and our market is flooded.
I have been thinking about this bootleg crap too much in the past 6 months and sometimes I think I should sell everything now before the market is untrusted like the AES scene. I know most of you guys don't see it as an investment, I don't necessarily either but if I can't trust people buying games and it becomes a hassle to sell them it really makes me think twice about my hobby.
Bryan, it's Joerg who is currently the only NAOMI bootlegger afaik, and Ikaruga is the first, but he has plans on other NAOMI disc games being converted to carts. I believe he's using original NAOMI cheap carts like Derby Owner's Club.
mjmjr25 wrote:What are you seeing in this listing that tells you this game isn't an official release? So it's certainly possible to make something look original and load / play as original. Do we need to ask for macro shots of the disc ring on DC games now?
Replace inhabitants art with Project Justice copied art and you have a game that looks and plays like an original; right down to the artwork, manual, and disc-art -you won't be able to tell it's a boot until you inspect some tiny / holographic letters.
The point is it's more than possible likely - where is the slippery slope? MVS wasn't bootlegged until it was. Atomiswave wasn't bootlegged until it was. SNES wasn't bootlegged until it was. Mega Drive wasn't bootlegged until it was. Kaneko Supernova wasn't bootlegged until it was. Sega NAOMI wasn't bootlegged until it was (just in the last 6 months). NES wasn't bootlegged until it was. Famicom wasn't bootlegged until it was. But yeah, they probably won't bootleg N64, DC, and SAT, that's jumping to conclusions.
1) the inner disc ring on DC games will simply not be present on a pressed disc. a GD-ROM cannot be reproduced easily en masse without a significant cost; hardly an issue. 2) therefore, bootleg DC games would be unbelievably easy to spot due to the absence of said ring. it doesn't take looking at tiny/holographic letters to tell; there won't be an inner ring at all. a simple shot of the back side of the disc, even blurry and taken with a flip phone camera, is easier to ask for than opening an MVS or MD cart. 3) saturn bootlegs simply cannot be made for a similar reason. did you read the assembler link i posted? the copy protection is ingrained in the media; it cannot be replicated without huge, costly investments. i doubt it will happen, even if all saturn games start going for $300+, because a) the initial investment is far too high and b) the potential profit to be made is far too low. 4) i'm sure N64 games will start to be bootlegged eventually if they haven't already, i'll give you that. 5) the listing you linked to is obviously not an official release. anyone collecting for the dreamcast would know that. anyone buying it off the cuff as a game to play would not care, since it would operate just the same. plus that's not even a bootleg, it's a homebrew game released by the goat store. how is that the same thing?
as dave has said numerous times in this thread (and i agree with him), we've always been really good about noting when games are bootlegs and pricing them accordingly. maybe adding a caveat to the rules that states than all bootleg/repro carts are subject to moderator approval in the case of an objection.
aaron, you completely are missing the point about bootlegs. You're hung up on an inner-ring. EVERY single library being bootlegged that has been discussed in this thread is done on the cheap and can EASILY be identified as a bootleg. MVS boards generally aren't SNK stamped and will have cheap roms in the wrong places. MD boots will have a cheaper PCB and hot-glue. Every single mainstream boot is identifiable by something that is too costly, or too hard to replicate.
A boot only has to do 2 things to be profitable and from there enter the secondary markets (me to you, you to ebay, ebay to me, me to my local gamestore, local gamestore to unsuspecting buyer, unsuspecting buyer listing it here, etc).
A boot needs to: load up like the original game look original at first blush
It is considerably cheaper to accomplish this with Dreamcast games than it is with Mega Drive. (art and manual about the same, a plastic MD case is harder to fabricate than a CD case, a PCB and shell is more costly than a CD - it doesn't need a magic inner ring, just like a MD pcb doesn't need SEGA silkscreened on the PCB to pass off as original at first appearances). The purpose of the goat store game was to show how easy and cheaply a game can be made to look original. He sells those CIB for $15 and still makes profit. As SEGA disc games continue to go up in value, it will make more and more sense to bootleg them, just like everything else that has been done in the past few years.
Do me a favor - go look for any moderately pricey Mega Drive game: Gleylancer, Twinkle Tale, Bioship Paladin, MUSHA, Eliminate Down, Trouble Shooter, Battlemania 2, Rockman World, Pulseman, Robocop Vs Terminator, Panorama Cotton, El Viento, Divine Sealing, Magic Girl, UndeadLine, Tom and Jerry, Double Dragon II, Master of Weapons, Bare Knuckle III, Chelnov, Grindstormer (v-v), Splatterhouse 2, and on and on. You will almost always find more bootlegs than originals and there is zero confidence in buying any of them online - that is why I brought up this topic, rather than assist in the proliferation of these boots to the open market, why wouldn't we say, "no", these are not good for the hobby - we can't eradicate them, but we will not be a part of the acceptance and proliferation either. The question I still have is why we are ok with this and allowing them freely sold in our marketplace. This is becoming true of any bootlegged library: DS / GBA / MD / GEN / SFC / SNES / NES / FAMICOM / MVS / AES / Atomiswave / NAOMI...any other library with pricey games is a matter of when, not if.
The only thing I wonder is, if all of these bootlegs, repros, etc. are so easily obtainable anywhere else, then what is the harm of enforcing more stringent policies here?
ok, i see what you're saying. i still don't have a strong opinion on it, because i don't plan to make those purchases, but i see what you're saying. what i said about saturn games still stands, though. those won't be bootlegged.
edit: and, really, as far as our responsibility goes, i think that my points are still valid, in that if a bootleg is being offered, it needs to be explicitly stated in the thread or somewhere on the cart. i wouldn't expect someone to print off a new label that says "reproduction" on it if they bought a bootleg then tried to sell it here (as a known boot).
