Video game age gettho

[ZeroAX]

Also, gameplay is too laughably unrealistic to get gaming more respect as an art form. I'll use my classic example of whenever critics bash a movie for having ridiculous, over the top action, they typically compare it to a video game. Video games may be more popular and maybe even mainstream today, but they are still not taken seriously. The Wii is being marketed mostly as a kid's toy or an exercise device. It's the most popular system right now, but does it have any games that are so deep and meaningful we could compare them to sometime like Citizen Kane? There are few games that can be compared to the high art and mature storytelling we've seen in cinema and tv. Sure, we get the occasional Mass Effect or Ico, but again, those aren't the norm

To be fair, video games are their own thing, and shouldn't be compared just with movies. Some times games are closer to movies, some times closer to books, some times closer to puzzles closer to board games ect. ect.

Mario Galaxy is an artistic masterpiece imo. It might not make me think, but it evokes a wide range of positive emotions from me.

Games have some way to go until they are really art, but we are getting there. Only thing, I believe game designers should focus more on trying to tell a story with gameplay. Having your actions be a part of the story. Let's start from easy stuff (do I save my wife or my daughter? How will that choice effect my character's relationship with the one who I decided to save? ...or will designing my house a particular way in a game, make different NPCs think different stuff about me?)

Also you don't have to tell a story for it to be art. Paintings and music without lyrics are more about emotions than story.

[flamepanther]

Also you don't have to tell a story for it to be art. Paintings and music without lyrics are more about emotions than story.

You know, I was thinking of trying to make a very similar point. I think all of the emphasis on getting video games recognized as an art form through high concept storytelling is misplaced.

Video games are not even lucky enough to be in the same storytelling ghetto as comic books and animation. Video games are in the same storytelling ghetto as porno and WWE wrestling--and there are functional reasons for that, not just the obvious prejudice that exists. Pretty much any other means of being "artistic" would be an easier route to success. Games could get a lot more "art cred" by focusing on aesthetics and craftsmanship instead of chasing after "mature storytelling" and high concept experiments.

[Gamerforlife]

You guys make good points. Problem is, the gaming industry has been trying SO hard to be on the same level as everything else when it comes to storytelling. Plus, every game maker seems to want to make games that are like movies. How often do you play anything these days that isn't chuck full of cut scenes? Most of which are annoyingly unskippable meaning, "you WILL watch this and you WILL like it, because you didn't buy something that is just meant to be enjoyed for its gameplay, you bought this to be entertained by our high quality, cinematic storytelling". Well, when games send me that kind of message I can't help but expect a lot from their "story telling", since I'm being FORCED to watch it

Making games SHOULD stop trying to match tv and movies, but I don't see that happening any time soon

[jfrost]

Also you don't have to tell a story for it to be art. Paintings and music without lyrics are more about emotions than story.

You know, I was thinking of trying to make a very similar point. I think all of the emphasis on getting video games recognized as an art form through high concept storytelling is misplaced.

Video games are not even lucky enough to be in the same storytelling ghetto as comic books and animation. Video games are in the same storytelling ghetto as porno and WWE wrestling--and there are functional reasons for that, not just the obvious prejudice that exists. Pretty much any other means of being "artistic" would be an easier route to success. Games could get a lot more "art cred" by focusing on aesthetics and craftsmanship instead of chasing after "mature storytelling" and high concept experiments.

Thinking the other day, I realized that developers also tend to forget that games are supposed to be engaging (or "fun") to keep the player going. And a lot of games who try to have a high form of storytelling dismiss the "fun-factor", I think.

I agree with you that games should try to be artistic focusing on their excellence as games, not in aping other mediums.

As I said in other topic, I think that there's something to be said about the artistry of the level design of games like Super Meat Boy, with such polish on the levels that they shine.

[Gamerforlife]

Also you don't have to tell a story for it to be art. Paintings and music without lyrics are more about emotions than story.

You know, I was thinking of trying to make a very similar point. I think all of the emphasis on getting video games recognized as an art form through high concept storytelling is misplaced.

Video games are not even lucky enough to be in the same storytelling ghetto as comic books and animation. Video games are in the same storytelling ghetto as porno and WWE wrestling--and there are functional reasons for that, not just the obvious prejudice that exists. Pretty much any other means of being "artistic" would be an easier route to success. Games could get a lot more "art cred" by focusing on aesthetics and craftsmanship instead of chasing after "mature storytelling" and high concept experiments.

Thinking the other day, I realized that developers also tend to forget that games are supposed to be engaging (or "fun") to keep the player going. And a lot of games who try to have a high form of storytelling dismiss the "fun-factor", I think.

I agree with you that games should try to be artistic focusing on their excellence as games, not in aping other mediums.

As I said in other topic, I think that there's something to be said about the artistry of the level design of games like Super Meat Boy, with such polish on the levels that they shine.

That's actually a frequent complaint of mine. Many games just seem lazily designed these days. There is rarely a sense of real craftmanship. Often modern games have this sort of, "good enough" design to them. Part of the problem too is that designers too often copy eachother, flaws and all

[J T]

Games right now don't have any pretentious stuff, for example. They don't really try to push the envelope and I think that's the main hurdle games have right now.

I don't usually hear "pretentious" used as a good thing. That's ok though, because I kind of think it is. It's origins have to do with the word pretend. It basically means to pretend to be something greater than what you actually are. I think most great artists do something like that... they have to.

Anyway, here are a couple of games to try out that are a tad bit on the pretentious side, but they deserve some credit for trying something different, ambitious, and not at all what you normally would expect from a videogame.

1. Every Day the Same Dream
http://www.molleindustria.org/everydayt ... dream.html

This game uses a game mechanic that attempts to break you out of your routine way of living, then in a final twist, makes you regret wasting your life.

2. Facade
http://www.interactivestory.net/

Facade is a one-act interactive play. You type whatever you want and the AI tries to understand you. A little broken, but completely unique.

3. The Path
http://tale-of-tales.com/ThePath/

This game challenges the very notion of control. You progress by being willing to let go of the controller at key points and let your character grow on her own.

[J T]

Oh, and then there's p0nd
http://www.kongregate.com/games/peanutDre/pond



I can't tell if this is an art game making fun of action games, or an action game making fun of art games. It's worth the 5-10 minutes it will take you to play through either way though.

[Erik_Twice]

Also, gameplay is too laughably unrealistic to get gaming more respect as an art form.

Being unrealistic doesn't make it less worth as art. Just think about Picasso. In fact, we all know that making games like FPS more realistic will only make them worse because realism means less fun.

Unfortunatedly you are kind of right, because we know how much respect certain genres or ideas get.

@JT

I very much agree.

What I think is that games are not going to get respect from the art world with action flicks as good as they can be. How many comedies have won an Oscar?

It sounds harsh but I don't think games will get respect until they start to have that ugly part where you get an Oscar for adding beaten women, jews or handicapped people even if the movie itself is pretty damn bad.

That kind of art is very, very bad but when the other mediums have it and games do not, it indicates a problem.

I think after the "comercial boom" we are having now we will have that phase. And I don't think we will enjoy it

[flamepanther]

What I think is that games are not going to get respect from the art world with action flicks as good as they can be. How many comedies have won an Oscar?

It sounds harsh but I don't think games will get respect until they start to have that ugly part where you get an Oscar for adding beaten women, jews or handicapped people even if the movie itself is pretty damn bad.

That kind of art is very, very bad but when the other mediums have it and games do not, it indicates a problem.

I think after the "comercial boom" we are having now we will have that phase. And I don't think we will enjoy it

All of what you just said is already here, and it's already all true. Things like "The Path" (you mention an Oscar for beaten women... do little girls count?) are getting generally glowing reviews... even though the reviewers have to point out that there is next to no game play, absolutely no fun, and very little enjoyment. It's frequently stated that to get what little enjoyment there is to be had from this type of "game" you have to not even really think of it as a game in the first place. Despite the acclaim, it doesn't get gaming any recognition as an art form outside gaming media.

That leads me to another point I've attempted to make before. Once you try so hard to make a game "art" that you more or less strip out the game then... well, some might ask "then what was the point?" but I disagree. That type of "interactive art experience" is no longer a game, and I think we need to acknowledge that and move on. However, that doesn't invalidate gaming, nor the non-game interactive art, nor even the idea that games could be art. What it does is highlight the elephant hiding in the room: games are not a medium.

It's true. Games are not a medium like books or paintings or film are mediums. They are a type of activity. Game activities can be facilitated through a medium: game boards, playing fields, rule books, or interactive video software. That last one is our medium here. However, because games pioneered this medium, we confuse it with the separate idea of "games". We should be flattered that the medium our hobby has done so much to develop has become interesting to artists (pretentious or otherwise) who now see its potential and wish to do something other than gaming with it.

[dsheinem]

It's true. Games are not a medium like books or paintings or film are mediums. They are a type of activity. Game activities can be facilitated through a medium: game boards, playing fields, rule books, or interactive video software. That last one is our medium here.

You are right that "games" are not a medium. However, video games are widely considered a medium. "Interactive video software" is too vague and would include anything on a video screen you interact with (a word processor, DVD menus, etc.).

By analogy, you could claim that radio isn't a medium but just a subset of the medium of "sound" or that TV is a subset of the larger medium of "moving pictures" or that VHS is a subset of "the medium of film," etc. - but all are considered mediums in their own right, with their own distinct features.