The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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Fragems
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by Fragems Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:21 pm

I consider it to be retro or at least on the verge of becoming retro.

Pretty much I consider anything that is over a decade old to be leaning towards retro. Usually by then the games are washed out of the retail stores and require a little hunting or internet surfing to acquire.
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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by o.pwuaioc Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Exhuminator wrote:
o.pwuaioc wrote:
Exhuminator wrote:Old and retro are interchangeable terms due to being subjective descriptions.

That's not how the language works.


Then explain why it does not work that way.

Because language is predicated on common usage, not idiosyncratic notions. "Good" and "bad" are not synonymous despite both being subjective descriptions. Subjectivity plays no part in either the denotative or the connotative qualities of words. If you think it is acceptable to say that "old" and "retro" are synonymous because you are entitled to that belief, then others can easily say that "new" and "innovative" are synonyms, when in fact they are not. The "new" iPhone doesn't have to be innovative, and an innovative iPhone can be one that isn't now new. They're still subjective modifiers (Is it new if it's been out for 1 month? 5 months? 2 years?), but the subjectivity plays no part in their definition.

Likewise, "old" and "retro", despite the subjectivity of their assignation, are not synonymous. "Old" is based on a certain length of time compared with "new" or "not old". Retro encompasses old, but also indicates a style, quality, or flavor that is current. Civil War photographs are not "retro", but taking new pictures in the same style as Civil War photographs are indeed retro, assuming that it is recognized by others as being a peculiar, out-of-date style. With video games, there are two type of retro games. 2D platformers like VVVVVV or grind-heavy RPGs like, I'm assuming, since I've not yet played it, Ni Ko Nuni, are "retro-styled" games, because they're out of current fashion, hearkening back to older games. Just because they're retro does not, however, make them "old". The other type are old games, subjectively so, the playing/discussing of which is back in fashion, like NES, SNES, Atari, and Genesis games. Their oldness or newness is irrelevant to their retro-ness.

Therefore you can think, based on your experiences, that the PS2 is old, but it doesn't have any of the indications of being retro. If you think so, you have to at least argue the point. Start with the dictionary, and then go from there.
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Gunstar Green
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by Gunstar Green Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Retro comes from retrograde which means "moving backward" or "reverting to an earlier or inferior condition."

As the post above me states, it doesn't really mean something is old, but rather purposely old-styled.

It's actually inaccurate to call an actual old game "retro" because it's really just old, though we tend to do it because it sounds cool and because of the term "retro gamer" which is still kind of accurate because it means a gamer who themselves is old-styled in their preferences whether it be a particular aesthetic or type of gameplay.

"Retro" has sort of evolved to mean "old but trendy" as well, though a certain style still applies and I personally still feel like the PS2 and beyond has more in common with what we consider modern gaming compared to what we consider retro gaming.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by Exhuminator Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:41 am

o.pwuaioc wrote:Start with the dictionary, and then go from there.


Sounds good to me...

According to Merriam-Webster:
Definition of RETRO
: relating to, reviving, or being the styles and especially the fashions of the past : fashionably nostalgic or old-fashioned <a retro look>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retro

The PS2 was not designed to be "retro" when it was made, but it is retro to play it now because of its actual age. Pulling your dusty PS2 out of your closet and playing it now can be seen as an act of reviving a style of the past.

According to Dictonary.com:
ret·ro [re-troh] Show IPA
adjective Informal.
1. retroactive: retro pay
2. of or designating the style of an earlier time: retro clothes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retro?s=t

Is it not retroactive to choose to play the PS2 when there is a PS3 and soon a PS4? Is not choosing to indulge in its archaic technology instead of cutting edge technology a willful act of being a retro gamer?

According to the FreeDictionary.com:
ret·ro (rtr)
1. Retroactive: retro pay.
2. Involving, relating to, or reminiscent of things past; retrospective
A fashion, decor, design, or style reminiscent of things past.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/retro

Notice the parts I bolded because they can logically be put together as: "Involving things past". So if your gaming involves things past, that is to say playing archaic systems two generations behind the current, your gaming can legitimately be called "retro".

Perhaps you misinterpreted me earlier, maybe thinking I said the PS2 itself is an intentionally retro device upon its inception. I find that hard to believe though as that would require a complete lack of intuition in one's reading comprehension.

Rather I think the issue you are having is that you see retro as something that is outwardly designed to invoke an era of the past. And that definition is certainly one aspect of "retro" given the definitions above. However, you are ignoring the other half of the definition if that's so, wherein retro means to purposefully partake in things that are actually old. If someone made a game today that was designed to look like a PS2 game, that would be a retro game, yes. However, the conscious act of choosing to play legitimate PS2 games on an actual PS2 because you value their outdated style, that can be seen as a retro endeavor as well. That's clearly evident objectively and factually based on the non-biased definitions above. And in that regard I stand by my earlier post's language because it does in fact work.
PLAY KING'S FIELD.
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oxymoron
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by oxymoron Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:02 am

I hate debating semantics.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by RCBH928 Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:58 am

AppleQueso wrote:Keep in mind, Ps2 consoles were still being sold brand new in stores just a couple of years ago. It hasn't really even been completely gone long enough for people to start missing it yet, much less for it to start being "cool" again.



I thought ps2's still can be found brand new
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by oxymoron Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:00 am

RCBH928 wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:Keep in mind, Ps2 consoles were still being sold brand new in stores just a couple of years ago. It hasn't really even been completely gone long enough for people to start missing it yet, much less for it to start being "cool" again.



I thought ps2's still can be found brand new


They stopped production In February, I believe.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by AppleQueso Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:41 am

Actually, on the whole "evoking the styles of the past" thing, I think it's relevant to point out that the Ps2's visual design is based heavily on an old computer, the Atari Falcon 030 Microbox specifically.

Image

It's not coincidence either, you can look it up. Sony bought the patent for it from Atari.

So I guess in at least one sense, the Ps2 could be considered undoubtedly "retro," at least in terms of its appearance. 8)
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by BoneSnapDeez Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:14 am

^ omg I want one of those.
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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by o.pwuaioc Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:00 am

Exhuminator wrote:However, you are ignoring the other half of the definition if that's so, wherein retro means to purposefully partake in things that are actually old.

I think you mustn't have read my post.

o.pwuaioc wrote:The other type are old games, subjectively so, the playing/discussing of which is back in fashion, like NES, SNES, Atari, and Genesis games.


The problem is your interpretation of the dictionary (and its use).

relating to, reviving, or being the styles and especially the fashions of the past : fashionably nostalgic or old-fashioned <a retro look>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retro

The PS2 was not designed to be "retro" when it was made, but it is retro to play it now because of its actual age. Pulling your dusty PS2 out of your closet and playing it now can be seen as an act of reviving a style of the past.

There is nothing about actual age in that definition. Instead, it's all about styles and fashions. What style are you choosing by choosing PS2 over PS3? I gave a great example of 2D v. 3D, that 2D is fashionable and an outdated (literally) mode of the past. The PS2 is still brand-new. Games are still coming out for it. How does it differ stylistically from the PS3? When people see 2D graphics today, they know it's intentionally made that way to emulate the past. The playing of 2D games makes a statement about the past. Playing a PS2 is...? That's the case you need to argue, not how old the PS2 is or whether there's one newer console out now.

Is it not retroactive to choose to play the PS2 when there is a PS3 and soon a PS4? Is not choosing to indulge in its archaic technology instead of cutting edge technology a willful act of being a retro gamer?


No, it's not, according to:

A. Merriam-Webster: "extending in scope or effect to a prior time or to conditions that existed or originated in the past; especially : made effective as of a date prior to enactment, promulgation, or imposition <retroactive tax>"
B. The Free Dictionary: "Influencing or applying to a period prior to enactment: a retroactive pay increase."
C. The explanation at Vocabulary.com: "The adjective retroactive refers to something happening now that affects the past. For example, a retroactive tax is one that is passed at one time, but payable back to a time before the tax was passed."

oxymoron wrote:I hate debating semantics.

Fortunately for you, you're not. And, there is a possibility, if Exhuminator follows through, of discussing (not debating) what substantial stylistic differences there are between the PS2 and PS3.
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