The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
AppleQueso
 

Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by AppleQueso Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:51 am

Menegrothx wrote:I've already explained why pre-existing IPs and downloadable games don't count. If I rephrase my argument "There is a lot less diversity in the physical market these days", would you be satisfied? You can make an indie game out of what ever you like and publish it online. That is way different than getting publisher to fund you and having your "unordinary" game being sold in stores. If industry veterans like Tim Schafer cant get money from publishers (a very small budget, mind you) because according to them "it is impossible to sell adventure games/insert genre here" in today's market then there clearly is a huge problem in today's physical/retail market.


Why should we worry about whether these games sell in physical market anyway? They'll still sell on the digital front. Sales are sales.

I'm just trying to say that there's little reason to single out the physical/digital markets in the current generation, especially considering how the market is slowly transitioning to all digital anyway. If you ignore either one, you're ignoring a lot of great stuff.

You want innovative, quirky indie titles to sit right alongside the big budget blockbuster releases again? Give it a couple of generations.
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by Menegrothx Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:05 am

noiseredux wrote:How are you defining "substance?"

There are more variables and more outcomes.
Think of Ultima for example. You have different character classes, different weapon and armor classes, there are different kinds of monsters, moongates and spells and so on. You have a (relatively) huge world to explore and there's a lot of lore - you're not just doing random stuff to gain points, you are on a mission. Different characters make references to events and people while you talk to them so you feel that all the different places, characters and events are connected to each other and aren't just a bunch of loose set pieces. The game world feels elaborate, there's back up history, people are given a story, you have a purporse. The game makes you think about different moral dillemmas and the storylines explore differnet ethical and philosophical themes.

Or think about World of Warcraft's 3v3 arena during WOTLK. You have 10 different character classes, all of them have 3 different talent trees with 71 talent points to use. Every character has different weapons and gear, different enchantments in gear and so on. Every character class has like what, 35-45 different spells to use? Every different race has different racial abilities. When you put all those variables together, there is just a massive number of different outcomes. 3vs3 in a FPS game is very straightforward compared to that, every one has a gun and the same amount of health, shoot the enemy before you get shot first. No one will do this kind of theorycrafting just to find out the most optimal way to play CS


Yar's revenge has very little variables and the game experience remains the same every time you play. You shoot the bricks and blow up the enemy, the game resets. There are two outcomes, you either loose or win, and the way how you reach the goal remains pretty much the same from game to game, even if you become more efficient at playing the game.

Think of it this way: chess is a simple game but it has a lot of depth. There's a huge amount of different outcomes for every game and a crazy amount of different strategies you can apply to different situations. Compare that to tic-tac-toe, where every game is the same more or less.
noiseredux wrote:Your initial claim was that games like MM2, LOZ, etc can be played for hours while a single screen game is going to get boring quickly. Isn't Galaga a single screen game? Well I've sunk many, many hours into that game. Probably as many as LOZ. Probably more than MM2.

You know there are folks that play Pac-Man for high score. They get to kill screens. They play for many hours and it's not because they want to see how long they can endure a "boring" game.

That has nothing to do with substace and this argument has nothing to do with whether a game is actually good or not. Many of the simple golden age arcade games are designed well. They are designed to make you hooked so you would keep on paying the machine more and more quarters.
BoringSupreez wrote:You know a thread has gone down the tubes when people start arguing in a civil manner

I dont see how this worse than the alternative

AppleQueso wrote:If substance has nothing to do with whether a game is good or not, then why does it matter if a game is substantial?

Because I want more from my games than eating pills for points or shooting birds at pigs. I value more substantial games above simple casual games for the same reason why people respect Mozart more than Souljaboy. There's nothing wrong about enjoying casual games (or pop music), I do it myself too. Aslong as you aknowledge the hierarchy.
Last edited by Menegrothx on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by BoringSupreez Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:11 am

General_Norris wrote:Hey, guys, I heard whoever uses more quotes wins the argument!

You know a thread has gone down the tubes when people start using 10+ quotes per post.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
AppleQueso
 

Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by AppleQueso Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:13 am

Menegrothx wrote:
noiseredux wrote:Your initial claim was that games like MM2, LOZ, etc can be played for hours while a single screen game is going to get boring quickly. Isn't Galaga a single screen game? Well I've sunk many, many hours into that game. Probably as many as LOZ. Probably more than MM2.

You know there are folks that play Pac-Man for high score. They get to kill screens. They play for many hours and it's not because they want to see how long they can endure a "boring" game.

That has nothing to do with substace and this argument has nothing to do with whether a game is actually good or not. Many of the simple golden age arcade games are designed well. They are designed to make you hooked so you would keep on paying the machine more and more quarters.


If substance has nothing to do with whether a game is good or not, then why does it matter if a game is substantial?
Opa Opa
 

Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by Opa Opa Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:22 am

Can someone give me a tl;dr version of what Menegrothx is saying (or attempting to say)?

This conversation is bouncing all over the freakin' place and doesn't really have that much to do with the article in the OP.
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by isiolia Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:29 am

Menegrothx wrote:It's not an art preference when it affects the level of depth gameplay mechanics have. In other words Skyrim is dumbed down, infinity engine games aren't. Is it possible to make a 3D RPG with real time combat that has as much gameplay depth as isometric RPG? Surely, you could say that MMORPGs have done it (EVE, World of Warcraft's high end PvE and arena exceed just about any traditional RPG in that regard) already. But at the moment being there really aren't any single player games like that out there.


There's really been a lot of variety in that respect though. Post-Infinity Engine Bioware games have often still given a "hit spacebar to pause and queue up commands" option. Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age Origins still let you zoom out to a similar overhead view as well.

It's not as though things were always like that either. Skyrim doesn't come from a heritage of isometric games. Elder Scrolls titles have always been first person. Some of the mechanics are different, but "dumbed down" is perhaps a bit harsh. There's actually a lot to be said for streamlined, effective design over increasingly complex systems such as E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy's horrible, horrible interface.

Also depends on how averse one is to requiring skill - the Witcher games are quite complex, but harder to rely solely on knowledge when you also need to time attacks well to succeed. So, you know, make sure to mix up the right potions to pre-buff, get in the right stance, equip the right weapon, and still need to time mouse clicks or you get your ass handed to you.
To me, that's more involved than combat in Fallout, by quite a bit, but it's also more demanding since you're not able to just jack up stats to win (my Fallout strategy usually involves sniper rifles and a very high crit/luck rate :lol: ).
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by noiseredux Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:48 am

Opa Opa wrote:Can someone give me a tl;dr version of what Menegrothx is saying (or attempting to say)?


that's what I've been trying to figure out for several pages now.
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by Erik_Twice Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:50 am

What about making a new thread explaining what you are trying to say? Won't that be better?
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AppleQueso
 

Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by AppleQueso Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:51 am

All I know is that this whole argument seems to have started because someone dared to suggest that modern gaming has diversity.
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Re: Why I'm a Retro Gamer - from Racket himself

by Menegrothx Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:12 pm

noiseredux wrote:
Opa Opa wrote:Can someone give me a tl;dr version of what Menegrothx is saying (or attempting to say)?

that's what I've been trying to figure out for several pages now.

There is less diversity in "mainstream gaming"(=not counting downloadable indie games) during this generation than there was during PS1/Dreamcast era and games should not become download only
Oh and this picture
http://www.fromthedpad.com/wp-content/u ... -games.jpg
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
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