Why the obsession with story and characters?

[Erik_Twice]

@General_Norris - you are right Fantasia is wonderful work. The art design and animation are lavish and along with the music make a fantastic experience. Yet I would not class it as a great film personally, because of the lack of a plot and engaging charaters.

But why? I don't think the films needs them anymore than it needs a car chase, it's something cool but ultimatedly the film doesn't need them. It simply doesn't cross my mind why it needs them because it makes no attempt to do so.

Its true that artsy films can do this too, but I think thats much harder to acheive especially as the medium of film is so saturated with examples that can be instantly enjoyed without having to think about metaphors or anything.

It's harder to achieve a good film without plot, however it's interesting in it's own right. The opening sequence in Fantasia is not even methaporical, it's just nice, like a sunset or a huge orange cube.


Eskil, you tell me I'm jumping to conclusions, but whose conclusions? I do not think I have misrepresented your arguments.

Especially Final Fantasy is one of my favourite series precisely because of the story. I think FF is a brilliant example of my point, not yours.

I do not think you understood my point. I cited Final Fantasy as a strategy game, not as a roleplaying game. Strategy games do not characters, unlike roleplaying games which inherently need them to be such.

Yes, story isn't always what makes a game, but in many cases, it's the defining factor, and that's okay. Just as it's okay for other games to have no story whatsoever and still be absolutely equal in quality.

If the story is the defining factor why make it a game? Write a novel instead, it would give better results. I argue for animated films to be animated, games to have good gameplay and so on. It's simply poor use of the medium.

Anyway, this whole argument is a bit pointless since this is so obviously a matter of preference. I can understand that if you prefer games without a story, you're upset when games that don't need a story have one, and make you sit through long cut-scenes and whatnot. But that doesn't change the value of a compelling plot.

As I told you earlier, nobody is arguing for plot-less games. I'm arguing for the understanding that plot is just a tool.

I have not voiced my preferences in this thread nor do I think subjective taste is relevant to the topic.

[Ivo]

I agree with Norris - it is a personal taste but the plot is just part of it.

I think JRPGs are good examples. For me, the existence or not of "random encounters", the combat system, memorable boss fights (even if the bosses are mostly irrelevant to the plot) and other such gameplay-related issues tends to matter much more to my enjoyment than the story or graphics do - and as others noted, for me too these RPGs that I like more make me remember the story more!
Although one should note music and graphics are often used to enhance the gameplay (music that hints when you are in danger etc.), and also to enhance the storytelling (FMV cutscenes, memorable music etc.).

I disagree with something - if the plot is the main part make it a game nonetheless. Games allow more immersion than other mediums, even in "railroad" stories where you can not affect the outcome ultimately (most JRPGs). Note that even many of these most acclaimed RPGs with allegedly great stories have plots that are (IMO) quite weak comparing to other media - yet they are more memorable to the players than classic books or movies. Now imagine the true potential if you had the top quality stories in games?


Ivo.

[Opa Opa]

Although one should note music and graphics are often used to enhance the gameplay

Funny you should mention that. The more memorable the music and the more eye-appealing the graphics are, I'm more likely to continue playing an RPG.

However, I'm not discounting the story entirely but graphics/music really do keep me going if I enjoy the game presentation as a whole.

[BoneSnapDeez]

It's genre dependent. Do Contra and Metal Slug games need a story beyond "shoot everything!!!!" No, and if they did it would likely detract from the gameplay.

Would Final Fantasy VI be my favorite game without the amazing storyline and characters? No, it would feel like a tedious grind.

[eskil]

But why? I don't think the films needs them anymore than it needs a car chase, it's something cool but ultimatedly the film doesn't need them.

I disagree. I can't explain why, and I don't think I should have to, but I strongly disagree.
But if it helps, it seems there are a shitload of studio execs in Hollywood who agree just as strongly with your position.

I cited Final Fantasy as a strategy game, not as a roleplaying game. Strategy games do not characters, unlike roleplaying games which inherently need them to be such.

But Final Fantasy is the very definition of an RPG! Even in the case of the Tactics games, these are RPGs. And if they didn't have their characters and their plots, the series would have died after the first instalment. FF is such a slap-you-in-the-face-brilliant example of why story makes or breaks an RPG.

If the story is the defining factor why make it a game? Write a novel instead, it would give better results. I argue for animated films to be animated, games to have good gameplay and so on. It's simply poor use of the medium.

See, this I can't even get through my head. Are you honestly arguing for the death of movies, cartoons, comic books, audiobooks and so on simply because you personally believe novels are the best way to tell a story?
I don't think I'm actually capable of understanding your POV here.

As I told you earlier, nobody is arguing for plot-less games. I'm arguing for the understanding that plot is just a tool.

I got that. I just think that if you want to hang up a picture, it's a tad weird to use a spoon to drive the nail into the wall. Because, you know, there are other tools made for this purpose.

I have not voiced my preferences in this thread nor do I think subjective taste is relevant to the topic.

This completely contradicts your first post and in fact the very existence of this thread.

Apologies if I'm coming off as hostile, I don't mean to at all. I'm just having a lot of trouble trying to understand your position.

[chalo 07]

This is a great topic.

First, Fantasia does have a story and a plot, even though there are no words. I'm not too sure why some seem to exclusively associate narrative with words. That's not the case.

All a narrative needs is a character (loosely defined) and an event. So long as those two conditions are satisfied, I'd say you have a narrative even if it is short and unarticulated.

Even car chases are narratives. There are characters:: the pursuer and the pursued.events happen - swirving crashes and the like. And then there is the climax: One of the central character gets caught, crashes, etc.

I have to say, no one medium holds a monopoly over narratives and story -- especially not the novel. The novel is a relatively new form, but many other ways of story telling predated it.

The value of the different mediums lies in the fact that they can craft and communicate narratives differently.

Humans naturally are naturally concerned with their own kind. They seek art that captures themselves. Thus, any time someone plays a video game, particularly and RPG, they are going to enjoy it more if it has stimulating characters. And if those stimulating characters act in interesting ways, an engaging narrative (and gaming experience) is created.

[Curlypaul]

Even car chases are narratives. There are characters:: the pursuer and the pursued.events happen - swirving crashes and the like. And then there is the climax: One of the central character gets caught, crashes, etc.

This is exactly why the chase in Bullit is so brilliant, the set up with the shifty looks in the mirrors, McQueen dissappears, the belt get buckled and they both floor it. The stunt work may not stand up to a more modern film like the chase in Nonin, but you can watch the chase scene in Bullit in isolation from the rest of the film and it still tells a story.

Humans naturally are naturally concerned with their own kind. They seek art that captures themselves. Thus, any time someone plays a video game, particularly and RPG, they are going to enjoy it more if it has stimulating characters. And if those stimulating characters act in interesting ways, an engaging narrative (and gaming experience) is created.

Head, nail, hit.

[Erik_Twice]

First, Fantasia does have a story and a plot, even though there are no words. I'm not too sure why some seem to exclusively associate narrative with words. That's not the case.

Oh, I didn't say that Fantasia has no plot, rather, that the opening sequence (Toccata and Fugue in D minor) has none but is nice on it's own as said on the film itself.

Anyways, I'm not arguing that you don't often need a plot, rather, I argue than you don't need a good or compelling plot nor interesting characters to make an amazing piece of art but many people think so! Tex Avery could not get a cartoon done with the thinking we have today and that's a shame.

I have to say, no one medium holds a monopoly over narratives and story -- especially not the novel. The novel is a relatively new form, but many other ways of story telling predated it.

Oh, it doesn't have a monopoly but if you only care about story, it's probably the best medium for it, since you can distill there better than you can do if you spend millions on crappy animation that is not going to be important anyways.

Would Final Fantasy VI be my favorite game without the amazing storyline and characters? No, it would feel like a tedious grind.

But if the gameplay is a tedious grind and only the story matters, why make it a game? Cut he bad part altogether and get it on another medium if the part that defines the medium you are using is boring.

@Eskil

Have to say, I think you are misunderstanding me. I don't know how to explain it better than I did, I'm baffled at some of your conclusions, like saying I haven't voiced my preferences in taste contradicts the entire thread. Not to be rude, but I think you should read the topic more carefully.

[Korpi]

E: deleted

[Ivo]

Would Final Fantasy VI be my favorite game without the amazing storyline and characters? No, it would feel like a tedious grind.

But if the gameplay is a tedious grind and only the story matters, why make it a game? Cut he bad part altogether and get it on another medium if the part that defines the medium you are using is boring.

This here I think is the point really. Whenever I'm playing a JRPG and I feel like it is a tedious grind but I want to keep going to see more of the story, what does that mean? To me, it means: sure, the story is good enough to keep me interested but that there is a big design flaw (maybe in the length of the game or the gameplay is too repetitive). I think that is what Norris is getting at basically - and with that I agree.

That said, if there is a good story that I want to follow through AND the gameplay is great (Tactics Ogre may come to mind), the combined story and gameplay make something that is greater than the sum of the parts. I think this is what some other posters are getting at basically, and with that I also agree.

If I am correct, there is actually no disagreement on the thread, is just that people didn't understand the apparently opposing viewpoints.

Ivo.

P.S. what usually matters to me with JRPGs - and certainly those with random encounters - is that it becomes too repetitive before I finish the game, but by then I am invested in the story and finish it anyway. However, I would still prefer not to have random encounters. I replayed Chrono Trigger to get the different endings, for example, because the gameplay was good enough.