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nullPointer
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by nullPointer Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:33 pm

Exhuminator wrote:Not to be pedantic, but I don't think Final Fantasy Tactics is too long. I looked up my completion time of the PS1 version (beat it in 2014), I put 29 hours in to finish. That was without using a strategy guide or walkthrough either. 29 hours isn't much longer than the 27 hours I just spent beating Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings for this very TR.

LOL, I'll check my play time when I get home. Pretty sure I'm somewhere between 45-55 hours. I am on Chapter 3. (To be fair I'm on Chapter 3 out of 4 total, but still :lol:). And that's after spending time grinding up only my primary party in which each member is rocking the JP Boost ability (plus some light secondary focus on remaining generics). That's why I was questioning the real efficacy of an expanded roster size. Is there any point in the game where having a large party roster is beneficial?
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by Exhuminator Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:45 pm

nullPointer wrote:Is there any point in the game where having a large party roster is beneficial?


If you are the type of player who likes to grind up all sorts of classes, a larger roster gives you the ability to have more specific custom class squads. I think people get a little carried away with grinding up classes in FFT. I didn't find that to be necessary at all. The base class options you're given are more than enough to beat the game with. (Or at least they were for me.) That said, I realize some folks legitimately enjoy grinding classes and creating game breaking overpowered units. Personally the return on that level of time investment wasn't worth it for me.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by nullPointer Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:56 pm

Exhuminator wrote:I think people get a little carried away with grinding up classes in FFT. I didn't find that to be necessary at all. The base class options you're given are more than enough to beat the game with. (Or at least they were for me.) That said, I realize some folks legitimately enjoy grinding classes and creating game breaking overpowered units. Personally the return on that level of time investment wasn't worth it for me.

Yeah I think you might really be on to something with that TBH. Based on the fact that the difficulty of random encounters scales based on your (average?) party level, you might be better off not grinding at all, assuming you're leveled enough for the scripted battles. At this point for me in the game at least half of my random battles are every bit as difficult as the scripted storyline battles, not to mention just as (or even more!) time consuming. Part of my issue is that I'd really like to see what that Dark Knight class is all about. Being as I'm playing the WotL version I'd at least like to explore in some detail the nature of the additional content. But as I mentioned it's definitely a time consuming process.
Last edited by nullPointer on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by Ack Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:03 pm

Hey nullPointer, I've sunk more time into Final Fantasy Tactics than I even know(I've maxed out the clock multiple times on different playthroughs because I happen to be one of the folks Exhum mentioned who enjoys experimenting and creating game breaking units), and I'm happy to share my thoughts.

I don't know too much about the Onion Knight or Dark Knight additions since I played the PS1 release, but considering jobs like Calculator, Bard, and Dancer already have some steeper requirements, the requirements for the new jobs really don't seem so bad in comparison.

Chocobos will always be your bane. They just are that way, particularly red ones. Black chocobos aren't so bad, because even though they are mobile, they tend to have the least amount of health of the three. There is a particular battlefield you'll encounter with some rivers where you may repeatedly find a group of them: avoid this area. The best place to grind in my opinion is the Sweeney Woods and Mandala Plains early on. Chocobos will appear but are generally rarer in these spots, and while they're not entirely even, they're generally flatter areas that can help you get used to differences in elevation and understanding the importance of terrain. If you are worried about random encounters, save before you travel. Heck, do that anyway, it's a good idea.

Yes, depending on the situation, melee tanks can end up in situations where they cannot hit with a basic attack. This is where your skill choices and secondary skills come into play. I've always been a fan of bringing Squire skills as a secondary ability simple because Throw Stone and Accumulate can be powerful tools when used properly. Bring Monk skills, and you can dish out some nasty destructive powers at range with a melee fighter. Or you can use Dragoons, because their spears give them bigger physical attack range while their jump ability can rain down death.

Have you been breaking enemy stats and gear with Knights or stealing gear with Thieves? Breaking a stat or a piece of gear can rapidly destroy the effectiveness of many enemies; an Archer is nothing without a bow. Annihilating MP is a good way to make an enemy caster nearly worthless. Also, some of the best gear can only be found in the game by stealing or can be acquired much earlier in the game than normally found. For example, if you grind heavily, you might start seeing Archers with Ultima Bows long before they pop up in shops. I particularly like to take special unique opponents and take everything they own. Hell, I build for it. It's entertaining seeing someone considered so tough get crushed.

Pick out which enemies are weak and which are the biggest threat as soon as the battle starts. Look over their skills and gear. Single out what you want to take and what you want to destroy, then act accordingly. Always focus fire on whatever you need to bring down quickly or what you want to bring down quickly. If it can resurrect others, it needs to die quickly. If it has massive range, it needs to die quickly. Sometimes one less enemy on the field can be the difference. And keep an eye on speed and turn order! It sucks to whiff because you weren't paying attention.

I always try to wipe someone out on the first turn if possible; if I can't, I try to position myself to bait the enemies so that they waste a turn closing the gap and I can then unload on them.

When fighting bosses, I find it's usually better to take out their weaker minions first while trying to keep on the move, so that I don't have things stabbing me in the back when I finally go to drop a boss that will likely require multiple hits. Be willing to run away, and definitely be willing to try and trick things into the paths of heavy hitters.

And yes, grinding can be a double-edged sword, but if you take the time to learn the intricacies, you can actually drop the final boss in one hit, so...don't knock it. Some combinations of jobs and skills are stupidly powerful.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by dsheinem Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:58 pm

Exhuminator wrote: I still have PTSD from the "Hanging Gardens" section. :?


I have a game that's been stuck in that section for years that I just get frustrated every time I go back to it. Is it possible to enter the gardens unable to make it through...but unable to go grind enough to be prepared? I felt like I had found a virtual definitive loss state...
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by nullPointer Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:07 pm

Ack wrote:Hey nullPointer, I've sunk more time into Final Fantasy Tactics than I even know(I've maxed out the clock multiple times on different playthroughs because I happen to be one of the folks Exhum mentioned who enjoys experimenting and creating game breaking units), and I'm happy to share my thoughts.

Dude thank you this is all good and encouraging information! I've definitely been trying out some combinations with results ranging anywhere from awesome to miserable failure. One of my favorites that I've hit on is the setup I'm using with Ramza who's currently my heavy hitter in melee. I have him combining the dual wielding support ability of the ninja in combination with the main class of samurai meaning he's dual wielding katanas Miyamoto Musashi style. He's reliably hitting for somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 HP per attack which is pretty great for where I'm at in the game. He's also sporting the monks Martial Arts ability as a secondary skill which as you mention combines all sorts of great additional abilities (which I primarily lean on for long range attacks, as well as limited healing and resurrection abilities). This combo has proven to be practically unstoppable, almost to the point where I'd like to steer some of my support units down the exact same path. If I'm serious about steering Ramza down the Dark Knight path I'm going to have to change him into a Black Mage at some point and master that skill tree which is something I'm not greatly looking forward to.

Ack wrote:I don't know too much about the Onion Knight or Dark Knight additions since I played the PS1 release, but considering jobs like Calculator, Bard, and Dancer already have some steeper requirements, the requirements for the new jobs really don't seem so bad in comparison.

I really need to explore this a bit more. Both of my primary mages have opened up the Calculator (AKA 'Arithmetician' in this version) skill tree, but I've not messed with it. Those abilities seem super technical to the point where I'm not even sure how best to apply them. Still it does seem like it could be a killer class if I can grok the intricacies.

Ack wrote:Chocobos ... There is a particular battlefield you'll encounter with some rivers where you may repeatedly find a group of them: avoid this area.

Oh man there's one area in particular where they've just absolutely dominated me on more than one occasion (just looked it up - it's Balias Tor which sounds like something straight out of the JRR Tolkien playbook). The battlefield is set up in such a way that there's a tall & wide spine running down the center, with narrow valleys on either side. If my units are in one of the valleys the chocobos will systematically swarm that area until they need to heal at which point they retreat to the spine and heal up their units. By the time I've chased them up the spine they're completely refreshed. Then they attack me up there and retreat into the valleys, often in opposite valleys. Wash, rinse, repeat. Now when I encounter chocobos they have to be the first to go. I usually try to surround them on all four sides and go to town (although dual wielding Ramza can also do a fair job on his own at this point)

Ack wrote:Have you been breaking enemy stats and gear with Knights or stealing gear with Thieves? Breaking a stat or a piece of gear can rapidly destroy the effectiveness of many enemies; an Archer is nothing without a bow. Annihilating MP is a good way to make an enemy caster nearly worthless. Also, some of the best gear can only be found in the game by stealing or can be acquired much earlier in the game than normally found. For example, if you grind heavily, you might start seeing Archers with Ultima Bows long before they pop up in shops. I particularly like to take special unique opponents and take everything they own. Hell, I build for it. It's entertaining seeing someone considered so tough get crushed.

I've been doing some of this although I tend to attempt the theft approach moseso than breaking equipment. The trouble is, my thief isn't super effective at his job (I think his success rate on Steal Weapon is somewhere around 45%?). To be fair he's actually a dragoon using Steal as a support ability, and I never leveled him up fully as a thief. I've wondered if leveling him up more as a thief would improve things or alternately if he'd work better as a thief with his dragoon abilities (Jump, Equip Polearm) in secondary slots. Experiments!

Ack wrote:I always try to wipe someone out on the first turn if possible; if I can't, I try to position myself to bait the enemies so that they waste a turn closing the gap and I can then unload on them.

This is probably one area I need to work on. The ability to quickly close the gap on enemies seems like a great advantage. Both my mages (and my machinist/archer) are using the teleport ability which is hugely helpful in this capacity. My melee fighters are sort of the slow pokes.

Ack wrote:And yes, grinding can be a double-edged sword, but if you take the time to learn the intricacies, you can actually drop the final boss in one hit, so...don't knock it. Some combinations of jobs and skills are stupidly powerful.

Heh heh, I'm sure hoping I manage to stumble my way into some stupid powerful combinations at some point! Thanks again for all the info.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by MrPopo Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:07 pm

nullPointer wrote:
Ack wrote:And yes, grinding can be a double-edged sword, but if you take the time to learn the intricacies, you can actually drop the final boss in one hit, so...don't knock it. Some combinations of jobs and skills are stupidly powerful.

Heh heh, I'm sure hoping I manage to stumble my way into some stupid powerful combinations at some point! Thanks again for all the info.

Calculator + magic jobs is the general go-to. When I played through the game a year or two ago I was able to do it as solo Ramza without level grinding. Essentially, I just would spam Yell/Accumulate to get the skills I needed for a given job (which would also get that job to the level I needed to unlock the next), once per map, then after that I just steamrolled. The reason Calculator is so busted is he can hit pretty much arbitrary targets with high level magic for no MP cost and no charge time.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by Ack Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:38 pm

Yeah, a well-used Calculator is devastating. You're also pretty close to one of the most powerful melee unit combos with Ramza, though you're a little swapped around. I'll give you a hint: look at a Monk's raw power and imagine that hitting twice.

Also, you can mitigate your thievery miss chance by upping speed. It won't make you better, as stealing always has an element of a crapshoot. But making your thief faster means more chances. And don't downplay knight abilities! You might not want to break gear, but breaking an enemy's speed down to 1 means they are pretty much useless. So, pump up a thief's speed to 50, break his target's down to 1, and you're gonna steal everything he owns likely before he gets his next turn.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by Exhuminator Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:55 pm

dsheinem wrote:Is it possible to enter the gardens unable to make it through...but unable to go grind enough to be prepared?


I'm pretty sure you can leave the Hanging Gardens, to go grind, and then come back. I remember reading people would leave Hanging Gardens, go to the Palace of The Dead, and grind there for hours. I didn't do that personally though, I just exploited archers and ranged magic. My problem with the Hanging Gardens is that area of the game represented a drastic difficulty spike. Hanging Gardens was massively more difficult than anything before it, to the point of being disingenuous.
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Re: Together Retro: Final Fantasy Spin-Offs

by Xeogred Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:19 pm

Who's the guy with Dark Sword? That move completely breaks the game. Or whatever the attack was that heals for every point of damage you deal.

For that Ramza one on one potentially game ending fight, I did the Yell buff trick. Just kept running around stacking up Yell, so you can eventually one shot the enemy haha.

I'm not as big on FFT as most and ran through it twice back in the day, but I think nullPointer easily won the lottery here playing the best spinoff.

I mainly just wish 90% of FFT didn't limit you to 3-5 units per battle. In Tactics Ogre you pretty much always get 10 so it really feels like I'm controlling an army and have a lot more options.
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