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Sarge
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Sarge Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:23 pm

That would be really weird. Usually, I see things distributed as either ISO/WAV/MP3, or BIN/CUE. Still, yeah, it couldn't hurt.
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Exhuminator
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Exhuminator Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:28 pm

Sarge wrote:But if you're using a good burn, then it's no different than using a pressed CD.

I want take a minute to talk about a "good burn".

The contrast and reflectivity of the dye matters. Cheaper burnable media uses dye of a lower grade (and sometimes lower quality transparent plastic overlays), meaning the contrast/reflectivity suffers, meaning the laser diode must push more current than it normally would, meaning the diode wears out that much faster. That's why adjusting the potentiometer on current output for laser diodes is a thing with most older disc based systems, the diodes eventually wear out even reading legit media.

Going further, burning a disc slowly is not always about avoiding burn errors. Slow burns are better for old systems, because a slow burn makes the dye markings that much darker, which is good for old laser systems ability to read them. Modern optical disc readers have no problem with 52x speed burns and faint dye markings, but it's not so great for our old consoles.

So folks, if you're going to play burned games on your old systems, use top quality media (Taiyo Yuden) and burn as slow as you can.
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Sarge
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Sarge Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:47 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but I'm pretty sure the lasers don't actually dynamically adjust the amount of current they draw. They always use the same amount of power to attempt a read, but if they miss it they keep trying, and use a lot of ECC for sectors they can't snag. That's where the wear comes from. So if you are using a bad burn, it's really the re-reading that gets you, not the actual effort the laser gives per read.

Unless, of course, I've got that entirely wrong. But you're right, the potentiometer will adjust the power of the laser, which can temporarily resuscitate a system, but will also make it wear out that much faster. Of course, if you're having to adjust it anyway, it's probably about to crap out, so you might as well get a little more use out of it.
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Ziggy587
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Ziggy587 Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:06 pm

Sarge wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but I'm pretty sure the lasers don't actually dynamically adjust the amount of current they draw. They always use the same amount of power to attempt a read, but if they miss it they keep trying, and use a lot of ECC for sectors they can't snag. That's where the wear comes from. So if you are using a bad burn, it's really the re-reading that gets you, not the actual effort the laser gives per read.


Either way though, the laser strength adjusting on the fly or just more re-reads, same end results. And either way, a better burn would help.
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Exhuminator Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:07 pm

Sarge wrote:it's really the re-reading that gets you, not the actual effort the laser gives per read

Rereading a disc because of read errors causes more wear and tear to the mechanical parts that move the laser, rather than to the laser diode itself. The increased effort (extra current) to emit light is what wears out the diode. The laser diode does so because the data it is reading requires more light due to lesser reflectivity, a common problem with cheap dyes burned too quickly. I say this based on papers I've read.

I was trying to find a free PDF version of "Optimum Reflectivity Design of Laser Diode Facets and Recording Medium for an Integrated Flying Optical Head" a paper by Hiroo Ukita and Yoshitada Katagiri, written in 1993 for the Japan Society of Applied Physics. I can't find it online free anymore. I remember that paper did a lot to shape my views on diode damage via lesser reflectivity on low quality substrate.

But here's some info: https://assets.newport.com/webDocuments ... ion_IX.pdf

"time to failure is usually defined as the time at which the forward current has increased by 20% to 50% of its initial value"

"For this analysis we have defined end-of-life as a 20% rise in laser drive current (Iop) over the initial value. Using this definition, the aging trend for
each laser diode was extrapolated to end-of-life using a linear regression of laser drive current vs. aging time."


"Longer lifetimes can be achieved by designing drive circuitry that can accommodate a larger increase in current than the 20% increase that was used to define end-of-life in this analysis"

Sarge wrote:But you're right, the potentiometer will adjust the power of the laser, which can temporarily resuscitate a system, but will also make it wear out that much faster.

That resuscitation is a byproduct of the diode now having enough current to output enough light to achieve the reflectivity it needs due to low quality reflective surfaces (i.e. cheap dye on a cheap disc burned too quickly). However because the current has been amped higher, it does indeed wear out the diode that much more quickly.

So that's just what I believe based on research I've done over the years. But don't take me as saying you're all wrong, just explaining my stance!
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Sarge
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Sarge Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:44 pm

Yes, either way, you want a good burn, or don't use it. If I hear my drive struggling (and you generally can), I re-burn. I fought with this on my PSX, and eventually gave up on it because I didn't want to tweak the pot and ruin my only source of PSX gaming at the time. It read legit discs fantastically, and I had all the good RPGs anyway! :lol:
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by flybarber11 Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:51 pm

Skimming through - is it possible that the ISO is added in case you want to emulate and/or burn the disc? Here are the directions at the SF3 website:

II. Create a Patched ISO or CD

Information- Once the ISO has been created it can be played using an emulator or burned to a CD to be played in a mod-chipped Saturn. This method will work with all three of the Shining Force III scenarios and the Premium Disc.

Instructions

1. Place the original game CD in an available CD drive.

The Scenario 1 patch requires the US or UK version. It will not work correctly with the Japanese version.

2. Launch ISOMAKER 2.exe

3. Select the game CD you are patching and click the Make CD button.

4. Double click the drive the game CD is in.

5. Wait for all the Dos command windows to finish. Do not attempt any other activities while the Isomaker is running. This can cause errors in the ISO.

6. The SF3.ISO and SF3.CUE files will appear in the folder with the ISOMAKER 2.exe

7. Use Daemon Tools to mount the .CUE file and run with an emulator or burn the ISO to a disc for use in a modded Saturn.

8. Create separate directories to store the ISO and CUE files for each scenario. For example: Create the Sc1 ISO, place it in a Sc1 folder before creating a Sc2 ISO. The ISO and CUE files will be named the same, so they will need to be juggled around when playing different scenarios.
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Sarge
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Sarge Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:52 pm

Did you get this working? I just tried it with an ISO I had (and it is just the ISO, no BIN/CUE), and it seems to work emulated okay. The version I have is 214,147,072 bytes. I ran the patcher, and the resulting patched copy doesn't work with my usual MagicDisc virtual disc program, but it does seem to work with Daemon Tools Lite (in conjunction with SSF). Perhaps give it a shot that way, see if Daemon Tools works with an emulator, and then, instead of burning the ISO or BIN/CUE, instead do a disc copy from the mounted ISO in Daemon Tools. Maybe that will resolve whatever is going on.
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Re: Saturn Burning Help Needed

by Anayo Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:11 pm

If I was having this much trouble patching my own SF3 discs, I'd just head over to isozone and try downloading their pre-patched ones. If you were to get a hold of those and they still didn't work, that might point to a problem with the CD-R's being used or even the Sega Saturn itself.
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