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RCBH928
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by RCBH928 Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:23 am

Raging Justice wrote:Many are saying this show is a game changer for AEW. Time will tell if that's true, but it was an excellent show that everyone is talking about.

And yes, they are taking talent from WWE as you said, and not just any talent, but the BEST. I'm not sure if I can include CM Punk in that statement, but reportedly WWE tried to get him back and he went to AEW instead. So I think he counts.

I'm super excited about AEW working with New Japan Pro Wrestling too and I think it's a matter of time before this guy has a match there




Markies wrote:I don't know if I would call it a game changer, per say. WWE's foothold is still too firm at the moment. I think a big piece of the puzzle will be what happens to NXT. If it moves away from HHH's vision (High Budget Indie Federation) and into something that Vince wants (Developmental for Non-Wrestlers to Train), then I think AEW will only grow stronger. It would almost mean that AEW won the Wednesday Night War and then took almost every NXT viewer with them.

Because then AEW and WWE would be too different brands offering two unique types of pro wrestling. AEW would become the home of Professional Wrestling. The home for talent that loves Professional Wrestling, worked hard on the Independents and want to elevate the Art Form of Professional Wrestling. While, WWE, would be the home of Sports Entertainment. Goofy Storylines with larger than life characters from ex-athletes who see Wrestling as a way to make large amounts of money and don't really care about the ins and outs of every match.

And in a profession where only a few companies can offer you enough money to make a living, I think competition is a good thing!


I love how AEW is doing something different than the WWE formula which has been going for a long time. I am 100% sure its just a milking cow to McMahon, its not about quality, its just about getting the 9 year olds excited with cheesy and over the top characters. They know the money comes from the kids, as a "business" I can't blame them. A business always wants maximum money, won't shoot for "art" or "fun" or "different" like ECW.

The ironic part here is AEW is actually the richer guy(Khan is worth like $7-8B), so WWE is the underdog :lol: :lol: :lol: but if I learned anything from history is that WWE is a real cockroach that will survive anything and will adapt in any way or how to make money and will go to great lengths to do that. At least, McMahon does. I really wish the worst for HHH and I hope they fire him or crush WWE to the ground. I find him sleazy person who only got where he is because he is the son in law of McMahon and I won't be surprised if he married his daughter just to get more power in the company.

Personally I am impressed with Khan and how he took on the WWE in a very niche and obscure business. He is not imitating them, he is making his own thing without even worrying about them. In business world, nobody messes with the dominant player/s. This is why no one is competing against Microsoft, Google, Nintendo, Playstation, Disney...etc people with money go to new markets where they can grow and BE the dominant but never challenge the dominant.

I really thought this was just a rich kid playing with dad's money like Dixie Carter and I feel like Dixie Carter is watching from far and feeling jealousy and failure on how they were even in a better position and how she failed at it all. But Khan seems like he has a plan and a successful one, albeit I wonder if they are making money or doing the ol' Mr.Turner tactic where he pours money to "win" then quit on it all after failure....
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by Raging Justice Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:06 pm

RCBH928 wrote:
Raging Justice wrote:It's sad how dead this thread is, but I guess I should expect that from a forum based on video games not wrestling. Plus, racketboy forums in general don't have much activity. It is what it is. Everything is about social media and reddit in 2021 I guess

There's exciting stuff going on in wrestling right now but this thread is just dead. Oh well.



1-Most users here are hovering around 40 and 40+ age. Not pro-wrestling age target. As for me I have seen so much wrestling in past life that I just do not care for it any more, it all looks as rewatching the same movie with the characters have a different name and I can tell when they are doing something just for making money. Nothing today, imo, will match 90's -> 2000s wrestling , even pre that. Maybe AEW weekly show is better than the weekly RAW and WCW pre MNW , but no way the PPVs and for sure not better than Nitro MNW era... that is not to mention ECW.



Actually it's been said that statistically most of WWE's audience, the ones that seem to keep watching no matter how terrible the product they put out, is over 50. A lot of people over 40 watch wrestling. You can see them in the crowds of both WWE and AEW and New Japan Pro Wrestling as well. That said though, one of the areas that AEW has been beating WWE is in getting the younger demographic. I think ages 18-35 or something like that

I don't agree that nothing will ever be as good 90's - > 2000s or 80s wrestling. I think many of the people who have stopped watching wrestling have convinced themselves of that, but it's not true. Those of us who are still watching know that it's as good as it's ever been, and is in many ways even better

New Japan Pro Wrestling is highly respected by wrestling fans and has been for years. In fact, AEW was born from a group of guys who worked a lot in New Japan Pro Wrestling. They got together with Tony Khan and AEW was born. Then they hired Chris Jericho and his name value brought a lot of eyes to AEW. Ring of Honor's product is usually very good despite being a fairly small wrestling company and two of WWE and currently AEW's most popular stars came from there, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. Lucha Underground was pretty highly regarded by many people for putting out something fresh and different from anything else in pro wrestling and it very often gave off a very ECW vibe, mixed with Lucha Libre wrestling, and movie quality production values. Visually, Lucha Underground was a beautiful looking show and some of its story lines were the best I'd ever seen from pro wrestling. They even went so far as to kill off wrestling characters. It was like watching a regular TV series. Also, as bad as WWE's product has been for many years now, their NXT brand often put out quality shows. Many of their Takeover specials are very highly regarded. Unfortunately, WWE is changing NXT in many ways now after losing its Wednesday Night ratings battle with AEW, and NXT may end up being a very different product going forward. Lastly, I should mention NWA Power. They are putting out a product right now that many people like and it feels very traditional and old fashioned for people who want that. I'd say it feels similar to 80s wrestling and even wrestling before that era

The quality of matches too is MUCH higher than 90s - 2000s and certainly higher than the 80s as well. Nobody from Attitude Era WWF could do the things in the ring that modern day wrestlers do. New Japan Pro Wrestling in particular is often said to have the best matches in the world. Kazuchika Okada and Kenny Omega had a match just a few years ago that people were calling the best match they had ever seen. The only thing that was better from 90s-2000s and even 80s was the mainstream popularity of wrestling, but I think some of that can be credited to changing times and changing culture. Also, a lot of things WWE, ECW and WCW used to do is no longer allowed or considered acceptable in our current culture and I do think many people stopped watching wrestling because of that. The language, the sexualization of women, and the violence of the Attitude Era and ECW are generally frowned upon nowadays, especially by WWE share holders. On that note, becoming a publicly traded company may also have been one of the worst decisions WWE ever made.

Lastly, Chris Benoit murdering his family brought a LOT of negative mainstream attention to pro wrestling and I don't think it ever recovered from that.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by Markies Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:05 pm

RCBH928 wrote: I am 100% sure its just a milking cow to McMahon, as a "business" I can't blame them.

I really wish the worst for HHH and I hope they fire him or crush WWE to the ground. I find him sleazy person who only got where he is because he is the son in law of McMahon and I won't be surprised if he married his daughter just to get more power in the company.

I really thought this was just a rich kid playing with dad's money like Dixie Carter and I feel like Dixie Carter is watching from far and feeling jealousy and failure on how they were even in a better position and how she failed at it all. But Khan seems like he has a plan and a successful one, albeit I wonder if they are making money or doing the ol' Mr.Turner tactic where he pours money to "win" then quit on it all after failure....


Honestly, with the massive TV deals, WWE is more a business than they are about putting on good wrestling shows. Wrestling is the least important thing to them. They will do anything to maximize profits and cut corners, so any semblance of art or love for wrestling is out the window.

Back when I watched, I hated HHH the character and the performer. I suffered through his "Reign of Terror" and it was unwatchable. I truly think that he does love wrestling and he does love the business. I just think he is in a bad spot. There are jokes and memes running around of him wanting to join AEW and I wonder if that is true. I can't imagine the pain and misery of being married to a McMahon and having Vince as your Father In Law.

At the beginning, people thought Tony Khan would be the next Dixie Carter. Somebody whose parents have a ton of money and had no idea of what they were doing. The problem with Dixie is that she let people walk all over her and she catered to a Generation of Wrestlers that were beginning to fade away. Tony is not like that. It's obvious that he is a fan of past, modern and future wrestling. Watching him do interviews with talents and he is so happy that they are there along with them being so happy to be there. He respects the wrestlers and treats them like people. I think that says a lot.

Raging Justice wrote:Actually it's been said that statistically most of WWE's audience, the ones that seem to keep watching no matter how terrible the product they put out, is over 50. A lot of people over 40 watch wrestling. You can see them in the crowds of both WWE and AEW and New Japan Pro Wrestling as well. That said though, one of the areas that AEW has been beating WWE is in getting the younger demographic. I think ages 18-35 or something like that.


That is very true! During the Wednesday Night War, I don't think AEW loss a 18-35 Demo the entire time to NXT. WWE and even NXT skews older with most of their fans being older that grew up with them from their childhood. AEW has been able to grab many younger fans, those teenage and college aged fans which is really impressive.

I don't think wrestling will ever be as Mainstream as the Attutide Era. I think it will always be a Niche market. That Niche will probably never go away, but I can't imagine it having the boom as it used to. There is just too much competition for people's eyes and wrestling can only go so far. Much like how UFC is the same way. The violence will turn people off and it will never cross over. The actual wrestling is better than it ever has been in terms of quality and safety for the performers. But, the ratings and overall appeal just isn't there. It took John Cena almost 20 years for him to crossover!

Plus, mainstream people will still bring up, to this day, that "You know that wrestling isn't real??"
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by RCBH928 Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:38 pm

@Raging Justice

-As for the 50 year olds they might be the loyal 1% , if the 50 year old were the audience we will see ads for 50 year olds not Slim Jim and energy drinks.

-I really think 18-35 demographic is very tiny in percentage, that age people are into college, work, marriage, and family life I doubt they are into make believe fights. Sure some have it as a hobby but I doubt you would go into a bar and find the average talk about WWE RAW results over something more like UFC or NFL.

-I never saw NJPW so I can not comment.

-Maybe the technical wrestling is better but no one cares about that, people watch pro-wrestling for the entertainment not how well that DDT was executed.

-I see no one today in the star power of The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mankind, Bret Hart, Macho Man, Ric Flair, Hollywood Hogan, and Sting.

-In one night of Nitro, IIRC, they had Ric Flair vs Macho Man as the first match. No way you will see this today.

-I don't find much place for pro-wrestling for the average adult unless you are a die hard fan. NXT, RAW, SmackDown, NJPW, Lucha, Impact, PGW, NWA, ROH not to mention the PPVs .... just too much for the average guy to watch and I really do not know why are they keeping them alive.

@Markies

I agree with everything you say but as for McMahon being evil with wrestler contracts I kind of differ. Yes the wrestler schedule was horrible but life taught me if you do not treat people that way, especially wrestlers, they will take advantage of you. Being friendly and treating employees as family they will run over you.

I think this is what happened with Bischoff in WCW where he gave wrestlers creative control and no one did whats best for the company everyone did what is best for him or his legacy. I think the same happened to Dixie Carter who couldn't believe that Hogan himself was on the show with her. McMahon learned not to screw around and as an American capitalist he knows that he and his company comes first or the competition will eat him just like he ate ECW, WCW, and any W that was a competitor to him.

The problem with Dixie is that she let people walk all over her and she catered to a Generation of Wrestlers that were beginning to fade away.

Dixie had a lot of time to correct the situation, after one year of signing up Hogan and The Nasty Boys she should have understood the numbers are not making sense. There were many experienced talent on the show like Sting and I believe Jim Cornett. They all have seen this before they probably have spoken but she didn't listen.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by prfsnl_gmr Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:07 pm

RCBH928 wrote:Yes the wrestler schedule was horrible but life taught me if you do not treat people that way, especially wrestlers, they will take advantage of you. Being friendly and treating employees as family they will run over you.


What happened, RCBH? Did a wrestler take advantage of you? I’m just curious how you learned this very specific lesson.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by BoneSnapDeez Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:47 pm

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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by PretentiousHipster Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:32 pm

Made me lol
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by Raging Justice Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:59 am

RCBH928 wrote:@Raging Justice

-As for the 50 year olds they might be the loyal 1% , if the 50 year old were the audience we will see ads for 50 year olds not Slim Jim and energy drinks.

-I really think 18-35 demographic is very tiny in percentage, that age people are into college, work, marriage, and family life I doubt they are into make believe fights. Sure some have it as a hobby but I doubt you would go into a bar and find the average talk about WWE RAW results over something more like UFC or NFL.

-I never saw NJPW so I can not comment.

-Maybe the technical wrestling is better but no one cares about that, people watch pro-wrestling for the entertainment not how well that DDT was executed.

-I see no one today in the star power of The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Mankind, Bret Hart, Macho Man, Ric Flair, Hollywood Hogan, and Sting.

-In one night of Nitro, IIRC, they had Ric Flair vs Macho Man as the first match. No way you will see this today.

-I don't find much place for pro-wrestling for the average adult unless you are a die hard fan. NXT, RAW, SmackDown, NJPW, Lucha, Impact, PGW, NWA, ROH not to mention the PPVs .... just too much for the average guy to watch and I really do not know why are they keeping them alive.



You don't really know much about wrestling do you?

Who WWE caters to and who actually watches their product are two different things. They can have Mountain Dew and Slim Jims on their show all they want, it doesn't changed the actual statistical data. Facts are facts. They are A LOT of 40+ and 50+ aged people watching their product.

I don't think you know any actual wrestling fans, as many of them DO care about in ring work. That's why people who cover pro wrestling like Dave Meltzer have a star system they use to rate matches and many fans use it too with 3 stars being good, 4 stars being excellent, and 5 stars being match of the year candidates or all time classics. Many of the most popular wrestlers today are only popular because of the amazing matches they've had and the incredible things they've done in the ring. I mean New Japan Pro Wrestling is popular with fans around the world, just based on the quality of their matches and many people don't understand Japanese and don't even know what those wrestlers are saying when they talk. There's a store, I think it's Hot Topic, that has been selling out t-shirts and merchandise for The Bullet Group, a faction from New Japan, for a long time now

I have actually been to sports bars that aired pro wrestling pay per views and people at those bars would go nuts reacting to everything happening. Hell, there are some clips on youtube of people in a bar watching AEW's last pay per view. Hell, ESPN even covers pro wrestling despite it not being a real sport. So there are plenty of 18-35 year old people into wrestling as well as many 40-50 year old people

I don't know why people use "make believe fights" as some sort of insult to pro wrestling. They don't pretend that it's real, that stopped many, many years ago, and fans know that it isn't real, just like they know nobody could get into a gun fight with like 50 people and survive the way Keanu Reeves does in the John Wick movies. Yet many ADULTS watch the John Wick movies. I'm amazed that there are still people out there who tell wrestling fans, "It's not real", as if that's some big secret that they don't know already. Pro Wrestling is not a real sport. Every fan already knows this and doesn't care. In fact, many UFC members, people who actually engage in real fights for a living, enjoy pro wrestling. Some have even crossed over and become wrestlers themselves like Ronda Rousey.

I don't understand your point about Flair and Macho Man. I've seen many wrestling shows today begin with a match between two popular stars who everyone knew were going to have an amazing match.

There's plenty of stars today that are on par with The Rock, Foley, Flair, Macho Man, etc, etc, etc. It's just that wrestling isn't as popular now as it was back then. You saw CM Punk's debut in AEW. You're telling me he is not a star with the reaction he got from that crowd? Or the whole arena going crazy when Daniel Bryan debuted this past Sunday? There was a period of time during Daniel Bryan's run in WWE where he was getting insane crowd reactions, louder than anyone else in the company. People were even doing his yes chants at schools and sporting events. WWE unfortunately doesn't know how to use their talent properly, so while they have a lot of people who could be stars they often find a way to ruin it for them. Sometimes a person will still catch fire though, like Daniel Bryan did, or Becky Lynch

Some people just can't let go of the past. There's a lot to enjoy in pro wrestling today, but unfortunately some people refuse to let go of Attitude Era WWE and constantly act like pro wrestling will never be as good as it was then. There are people today who are better on the microphone than many people from that era. If you put The Rock in an AEW ring with CM Punk today and gave them each a microphone, Punk would tear him a new one on the microphone. I have no doubt of that. And the matches today are far and away better than most of the ones from the Attitude Era.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by PretentiousHipster Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:13 am

Yea, I noticed a pattern of RCBH doing a lot of selective memory when it comes to his posts.

Wrestling being fake has me respect it more. The mix of choreography and improvisation, always resulting in great acrobatics, stamina, and exaggerated motions for affect is a sight to behold.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

by marurun Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:24 am

I was never a fan of wrestling. It seemed very ham-fisted and either over-the-top or alternately too flat back in the day. And I hate the values WWE reflects in its characters and shows. But everything I’ve heard about AEW tells me I gotta respect what they’re doing even if it isn’t for me. And I might be a fan of Kenny Omega as a human being.
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