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racketboy
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What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Days?

by racketboy Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:16 pm

I'm planning on going through my CD image collection and filling in some gaps and also replacing some old-school ISO+MP3 images.
I know BIN/CUE was the main format for lossless images of Sega Saturn and Sega CD games, but now I see CHD files being mentioned a lot.

When it comes to different ODEs or things like MiSTER, emulators, and such, which format seems like the best standard for modern compatibility?

Thanks!
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by prfsnl_gmr Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:45 pm

At some point, I will back up my Saturn collection, and I am also interested in this topic.
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by Ziggy587 Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:43 pm

If you're backing up your own discs, just stick to the BIN/CUE format.

If you're downloading, the newest trend for "best" image format is multiple BINs with a single CUE. Images consisting of multiple BINs with a single CUE work the same way as an image with a single BIN and CUE, and has the same compatibility with stuff like ImgBurn and ODEs. They're kind of like ISO+WAV images, but instead of having an ISO for the game data and then a WAV (or the dreaded mp3) for each audio track, there's a BIN for the game data and then a BIN for each audio track. I don't know what the advantage is to having multiple BINs rather than a single BIN, but I'm sure it has some archival purpose. If you're just looking to burn or use with an ODE, then either kind of BIN/CUE image is perfectly fine.

CHD, as far as I can tell, is just a way to make things a little easier. So instead of having every game image consist of multiple files, which means needing sub folders to keep them organized and from getting broken, you can have a single CHD file instead. I think CHD might also offer some compression, though I'm not entire sure about that. I think CHD started for MAME because arcade game images always consist of multiple BINs (one for each EPROM on the arcade board) but has since gained some traction as a format for other emulators. CHD really doesn't interest me, so I never investigated it further. Some of the above info may not be correct.

I would still stick with BIN/CUE. CHD may be nice in the way of convenience, but it doesn't work with everything. BIN/CUE can be used with anything, but CHDs cannot (at least not yet). I believe you can convert an image to/from CHD, but in my opinion it's easier to just keep standard image formats such as BIN/CUE.
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by nightrnr Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:26 pm

From what I have seen, Bin/cue is more compatible, but ccd+img+sub (imageburn) is more accurate.

Then again, I don't think bin/cue is compatible with Rhea/Phoebe, so even that's not everything.

I use CDI, but again, for Rhea.
I may switch over to img though, assuming my surviving Saturn games are still good.
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Ziggy587
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by Ziggy587 Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:26 am

CCD is actually the Clone CD image format, but ImgBurn now supports it. I know that CCD was the better choice for PS1 games, but I don't believe it has any advantages over BIN/CUE for Saturn games.

The Rhea/Phoebe don't support anything with a CUE sheet, which is very annoying. Also annoying is the folder naming sequence. That's why they have been left in the dust. The Fenrir is cheaper and supports more common image formats for the Saturn. And I believe it's more capable at this point. The MODE and Satiator are also more capable, albeit more expensive. So if you don't already have a Rhea/Phoebe, then I would stick with BIN/CUE.
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by Anapan Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:16 am

IMO BIN/CUE with the right software (there are multiple right ones) is the best, tho ISO can in all cases I've tried fully match all the systems I've dealt with extensively. I do not have much experience with Dreamcast and overburn data or the corresponding data formats.

I prefer single bin, tho it's rare to find a device or software that can't accept multi-file bin/cue.

No sub data is necessary for gameplay or reproducing an original disc to a recordable disc.

Anything but a raw rip with a correctly annotated cue file or properly created ISO file is either extraneous or lacking. In my experience an original disc, a properly burned disc and both ISO or BIN/CUE images are all fully interchangeable.
If your images can't check out against a simple CRC check of the official databases, you might as well delete it and start over because your data is corrupted.

My favorite software for creating or converting between formats is ISOBuster. Specifically, it can create single bin/cue from most other correctly made formats without damaging compatibility with any of the OSDs or emulators.

TOSEC and REDUMP both maintain databases of correct checksums to test your dumps against. If they don't match, your data is verifiably wrong.

CHD can be created or (painfully) restored. They are for MAME's console and computer counterpart MESS which is now officially part of MAME. It's really a pain to deal with this format, everything is clunky and difficult to deal with. Creating correct (?) CHDs is difficult. Extracting verifiably correct data from a CHD is clunky and painful. The CHD databases are or at least were IMO wrong in several cases, tho proving that to someone seems futile. Take my advice and try to avoid that whole pile of smashed worms.

If you are having any difficulty, PM me and I'll direct you to a fast source of correct data.
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Ziggy587
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by Ziggy587 Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:18 am

For the Saturn, if you rip a disc to ISO+WAV it's just as good as a BIN as far as I can tell. The problem with ISO is when downloading because you rarely found them accompanied by WAV, it was almost always MP3. And the CUE sheet was almost always either missing or broken. Usually it'd be broken because someone converted the WAVs to MP3 and didn't update the CUE sheet. The CUE is easy enough to fix or create a new one if needed, but to do that for many images is a pain in the ass.
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by racketboy Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:34 am

Thanks, everyone! This conversation is exactly what I hoped for!
And for reference, I'm seeing that Terra Onion's MODE ODE (for both Saturn and Dreamcast) supports the following formats:
"Compatible with CDI, GDI, CCD, MDF, bin/iso+cue images"
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Re: What's the Best CD Image Format for Saturn/Sega These Da

by Ziggy587 Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:32 am

Here's a breakdown on why (I think) the MODE supports each of those formats...

CDI and GDI - These are definitely only supported because of the Dreamcast. If I recall correctly, a GDI is a perfect rip of a Dreamcast GD-ROM disc. A CDI image is a Dreamcast game made to work on a CD-R. So a CDI image might have been compressed in some way. If you're looking to primarily use an ODE for the Dreamcast, then a GDI will be your most accurate rip. Although if you're also looking to burn them to a CD-R, then CDI is the way to go.

CCD - Again, the Clone CD format. This was the standard image type for PS1 discs. I'm sure the MODE only supports CCD for PS1 compatibility.

MDF - This format is similar to BIN/CUE. The MDF is like the BIN, and it should be accompanied by an MDS which is like the CUE. You would occasionally find rips of games in these formats when Alcohol 120% was semi popular (I think Nero also supported this format, which was also popular for a while) but they've faded away. BIN/CUE is still supported by more things, so MDF/MDS is kind of useless. It's nice that's it's still supported for people that might have rips in this format. Especially if you legally purchased Alcohol 120% or Nero and made your own rips LOL.

BIN and ISO - And obviously these are supported being the most popular image types.



I actually just picked up a MODE. I have an Xstation for the PS1, and a Fenrir for the Saturn, but the MODE seems to be the (current) best choice for the Dreamcast. Personally, I think I'm going to stick with CDI for Dreamcast. There might have been some really poor quality CDI rips back in the day, but I believe the bar has been raised so current CDI releases are really not bad at all. While you could have peace of mind with a GDI rip, knowing that there's no compression of any kind, CDI will just be more versatile. I have a DC with a busted optical drive that I will install the MODE in, but I have another DC with a working optical drive. So for me, it'll be a lot easier to have CDI knowing I can either boot it on the MODE or burn it. You can convert a GDI rip to CDI, but I'd rather not deal with the hassle.
I'm parting with some duplicate Blu-Ray and DVD movies. Check out this thread if interested.
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