How is your Dreamcast gaming going on?

[marurun]

All that info doesn't settle the debate over which video connector to use, however. For something like Dreamcast you want best available, but for SNES, NES, Genesis, is RGB actually best? May not be. The graphics for a given title may have been designed assuming the blur from composite. So sometimes the worst quality video signal may actually be the best for the graphical design of a given game.

[Ziggy]

All that info doesn't settle the debate over which video connector to use, however. For something like Dreamcast you want best available, but for SNES, NES, Genesis, is RGB actually best? May not be. The graphics for a given title may have been designed assuming the blur from composite. So sometimes the worst quality video signal may actually be the best for the graphical design of a given game.

That's more of a thing on the Genesis, for sure. See: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52491

As much as I hate to see those broken dithering effects over RGB, I have to admit that I use RGB for the Genesis 99% of the time. And that's because 99% of the time, RGB is the superior video output. It's only that 1% of the time (probably even less than that) where composite is desired. And on the Genesis, composite will make the 99% of the time look SO much worse. Even when you choose to use composite for a specific game, sure, that dithering effect will work but the rest of the game will look like shit. No other home console really used the composite smearing to the degree that the Genesis did. And that's probably because the Genesis composite video signal was pure shit. Otherwise, it's really not much of a debate which video signal is best.

...at least in the world of CRTs...

1. RGB - If the console natively uses RGB, then you almost always want RGB. Consumer TVs in North America didn't input RGB, so that's the only problem.

A. YPbPr component video - Like Thing 1 and Thing A, it is pretty much equal to RGB in the 240p/480i resolutions. Retro consoles don't natively output component video, but many people will transcode RGB to YPbPr to use on an NTSC consumer TV. However, YPbPr is superior to RGB because it supports higher resolutions. So the PS2 for example supports both RGB and YPbPr output. If you're using an HDTV, it's no question, use YPbPr component cables. But for a CRT, it doesn't matter really. I only list RGB first because the least amount of processing is always desirable, so not having to transcode RGB to YPbPr is best.

2. S-Video - Definitely superior to composite video, but not as good as RGB or component. The jump from composite video to S-Video is significant. It's a huge, noticeable improvement. The difference between S-Video and RGB isn't as pronounced.

3. Composite (CVBS)- Prone to problems, like dot crawl and color bleeding, but depending on the source and the display it can be decent. Also has the benefit of the Genesis smearing dithering effect. Some old computers used something similar to create more colors. Not horrible, but not desirable when S-Video or RGB are available.

4. RF - Only to be used when no other option is available. From my own experiences, it can have about the same picture quality as composite, but the audio is super muffled. You can almost always easily mod an RF only system for composite, and I would fight tooth and nail to do so.

VGA is kind of an oddball because the Dreamcast is the only home console to use it. It is superior to RGB. So you'd think it's a no-brainer, just use VGA for the Dreamcast. The problem there is that not every game supports the VGA output. Some games can be tricked into using it, but others cannot. But either way, it's a pain in the ass and like the Genesis you have to pick and choose. Also depends if you're gaming on an HDTV or CRT. If using the Dreamcast on a CRT, then just use S-Video or RGB. It's only on an HDTV (or VGA monitor) that you really want to use the VGA output. Unless you do an HDMI mod, then that would be the best option.

For HDTVs, it's a real can of worms. In 2023, I'd say your only real option for retro consoles is to use a purpose built scaler like a Retro TINK product, Framemeister, et cetera. In which case, you ALWAYS want the best video output from any given console. Which is usually RGB. Even on the Genesis. And if the console doesn't output RGB, then there's usually a mod for that. From the 6th generation of console on though, you really want a digital solution if possible. So if a digital AV mod exists, then that's always your best choice.

[marurun]

The Dreamcast also has weird VGA timings that make modern HD displays show the wrong resolution. CRT VGA monitors display it perfectly, but other stuff often mangles the resolution.

[RCBH928]

I am too lazy to multi-quote, but:

we need multi quote feature in this forum

1. There are loads of working Dreamcast consoles . Picking one up is easy and fairly inexpensive (but not as cheap as it was a few years ago. It's also really easy to replace the disc drive and install a device to run games off of an SD card or external hard drive, if the disc drive is shot.

2. The answer to your question is enough people are interested for these devices to exist. As I mentioned, there are HDMI adapters for loads of different "old" consoles now. Companies are releasing new controllers and peripherals for these consoles all the time. Retro-bit were used by Sega to release brand new official controllers (replicas of the original thing) for the Mega Drive/Genesis and Saturn (both wired and wireless) recently and they have been working on a Dreamcast controller for ages that hasn't been released yet.

yeah I got it, I am just amazed. I can hardly think of any product that was discontinued 20+ years ago that still gets new releases. Amazing , isn't it?

4. They do indeed provide a two year warranty on 25 year old hardware. Everything is tested prior to being sold. Is it wise? Probably not, but it's their business model and it works for them.

That some serious great customer service! I mean, just 6 months would be generous. Do they possibly refurbish them?

5. Yeah, the Dreamcast was next gen and a competitor to PS2, Gamecube and Xbox (although was pretty much dead by the time the other two came out). But it was the first one on the market and the jump felt huge at the time. For reference, the N64 came out in 1997 in the UK and Dreamcast came out in 1999 here, so to us especially, it felt like a massive jump. Especially when we saw all the screenshots and videos coming out in 1998 when it was announced and then hit Japan.

I think i completely agree, I think the graphical jump from 16bit -> 32bit is equal to 32bit->128bit . No way you can't tell the massive difference. I think its bigger than ps2 -> ps3

7. Surprised the machines still work? There's a mixture of original arcade hardware, but also companies have been creating official reproductions of them too. I guess the original hardware can always be refurbished and maintained.

even the CRTs?

[Ziggy]

The multiquote feature I've seen on some forums is rather nice, but I've come up with a workaround for Racketboy.

Firstly, I feel like this is a little known feature... When looking at your reply box, if you scroll down you can see the last 10 or so posts in reverse order. There's a "Quote Ziggy587" button, which if you click will quote the entire post. But, if you highlight specific text, then when you click the quote button it will only quote that text which is highlighted. Using this method, as long as the posts you want to quote are recent, you can pretty easily scroll down and grab the quotes you want. Still not as ideal as the multi quote feature I've seen on other forums, but very handy still.

When that fails... Say, when you're coming into a topic that is already on page two and there's several posts you want to quote. What I do is click on reply, then open the thread in another tab. Then I can click the "reply with quote" button in the new window, which doesn't affect my reply box. I can edit which part of the quote I want, if not the whole thing, then just hightlight, CTRL+C. Go back to my reply box, and CTRL+V. Again, not as ideal as a true multi quote feature, but works well enough that I'm not bothered by the lack of one.

[Reprise]

That some serious great customer service! I mean, just 6 months would be generous. Do they possibly refurbish them?

Legally in the UK and Europe you are covered for 6 months anyways.

They don't refurbish them, no. That is unfortunate in my opinion, as some consoles like the original XBox, Game Gear and Mega CD can be ticking time bombs in most cases, but I suppose you have to trust the people doing the refurbishing job. I have heard a lot of controversy about DK Oldies refurbishing (or allegedly not refurbishing) consoles in the US.

The most amazing thing though, is they offer a two year warranty on everything. It's not just hardware, it's all software too, whether it's that £3 copy of NHL Hitz you bought for the Gamecube, the latest Call of Duty game, or the £270 copy of Alien Soldier.

It's often used as an excuse for jacked up prices on hardware though. You are definitely paying more than you would on eBay, but it does give you peace of mind that if you have an issue a few months or even a year down the line you can just return it to the store for a replacement or refund in the form of store credit (there's the catch).

even the CRTs?

I am not sure. CRTs are notoriously hard to fix. I did just see something on Facebook that made me think of this discussion though. I saw a guy sharing a photo of an original Sega Rally arcade machine he stumbled across whilst he has gone away with his family camping. It is still working and set up at a random camp site. Pretty neat, isn't it? The arcade I went to the other day had an original Daytona USA machine.

I am not sure how these things are still working and if they have been fixed up over the years, but it is cool there are still some working machines.

But, if you highlight specific text, then when you click the quote button it will only quote that text which is highlighted.

Wow, it actually works! Thank you, I never knew you could do that.

This forum really could do with a multi-quote feature. It could do with an automatic saving your comments as a draft feature too, which most other forums have now. The other day I was having connection issues and lost a massive post I had been writing because as clicked "post" the internet cut out and it didn't go through.

[RCBH928]

Great info Ziggy thanks! I am not sure what RGB output/signal is and wether there are other forms as outputs as I correlate the output with cable/port . RGB, SCART, and S-video all give a better output over composite but somehow composite was always the standard and most popular one. Is there a reason for this? I mean if SCART is better or S-Video why not skip composite altogether?

I got a RetroTINK 2X for my retro consoles but I am too outdated, is it good enough for pre-ps2 consoles (including the Dreamcast) or there are somethings more worth while now? is it just upscaling the composite image (bad) or is it actually making it look better like RGB signal?

When I first saw composite with 3 coloured wires I was thinking like "the future is now" . I think I first used it with the PSX that was also another "the future is now" console with its "alien" symbols for buttons. I am completely surprised co-existing S-vide and SCART was always the better option. Especially S-video since it looks like RF cable.

To answer your question about RF. I recently used composite to view VHS and LaserDiscs and honestly the video signal is pretty neat , not HD, but I can't complain. I think it even looks worse on HDTV as it tends to smooth the analog picture more. Some years ago I used RF for tv channels on hdtv and it was horrible. idk how we used this back in the day. The image quality was like high(er) resolution mid 90s FMV game. I would say the image resolution is on par with VHS but half the colors seem to have been missing like turning down saturation on an image. Maybe it works better on CRT.

[Ziggy]

I am not sure what RGB output/signal is and wether there are other forms as outputs as I correlate the output with cable/port . RGB, SCART, and S-video

RGB does not (necessarily) mean SCART and vise versa. SCART is the connector, like an RCA plug that composite uses. But also component video and stereo audio uses RCA plugs, which is why we don't call composite video RCA for example. I mean, in the world of retro gaming, if you say SCART then most people will assume you mean RGB. But basically, the video signal and the connectors/plugs/jacks are two different things. For example, in the consumer world we commonly have composite video over that yellow RCA jack. But in the professional realm, you might have composite video over a BNC jack. For RGB, in Europe you would find it in a SCART plug for consumers. But SCART could also be used for composite video, so just because you have a SCART cable doesn't mean it's wired for RGB. In Japan, they had the JP21 which is physically identical to a SCART plug but is wired differently. In the USA, consumers didn't have RGB on TVs, but professional equipment might have RGB over BNC jacks.

If you watch the My Like In Gaming videos that I linked above, they not only explain this better but also give you visual examples of everything so it'll be much more clear to you.

RGB, SCART, and S-video all give a better output over composite but somehow composite was always the standard and most popular one. Is there a reason for this? I mean if SCARTis better or S-Video why not skip composite altogether?

It comes down to the two things that everything always comes down to: What is cheaper, and what is easier (cheaper always takes priority over what is easier). A SCART cable wired for RGB is going to be much more expensive than composite AV cables. In the USA, we didn't even have SCART/RGB so that wasn't an option anyway. But why we stuck to RF and composite for so long? Again, cost. But also how easy it is for the consumer. And the fact that most things would really benefit from a better connection anyway. Like TV or VHS. Sure, we had S-Video, but it wasn't very popular. Stores didn't really stock S-Video cables for consoles like they did RF or composite. It wasn't until DVD started to gain traction that component video became a thing. Even if the USA had it's own consumer RGB connection, like SCART or some kind of DIN, it would still be much more expensive to make those cables compared to composite. So a device would still come with composite cables, and most people would stick with that being naive to anything better. And again with cost, early home consoles always came with RF connections. The RF modulator was either built into the console, or in the AV cable. But as soon as it was standard for most TVs to have composite inputs, then home consoles started to be bundled with composite cable instead of RF because it's cheaper (it just so happens that composite is better in this case).

I got a RetroTINK 2X for my retro consoles but I am too outdated, is it good enough for pre-ps2 consoles (including the Dreamcast) or there are somethings more worth while now? is it just upscaling the composite image (bad) or is it actually making it look better like RGB signal?

The Retro TINK 2X is a purpose built scaler and will be loads better than most other things for retro gaming. I'm not an expert on TINK products though, so I can't deep dive. I do know that the 2X is the more simple product. It has the whole ease of use thing going for it. But there are better scaler options out there, like the Retro TINK 5X for example. But yeah, if all you're using are composite cables, then you would see a benefit if switching to RGB. But I don't think the 2X can input RGB. But IIRC it can input S-Video, which really isn't bad. It's just that it matters so much more with scalers. You want the best video signal, and the best quality (shielding) cable. Because any noise or garbage that's in the signal will also be scaled.

I am completely surprised co-existing S-vide and SCARTwas always the better option. Especially S-video since it looks like RF cable.

Well like I said, S-Video was never really all that popular. At least not here in the States. If you're VCR cable with an RF cable, then that's what you used to hook it up to your TV. If your SNES or PS1 came with composite cables, then that's what you used. You didn't know what S-Video was, and it would have been rare to see those cables in a store even if you were curious about it.

S-Video and RF are both circular connectors, but that's where their similarities end. RF is a single conductor wire, carry one signal (RF = radio frequency). S-Video commonly uses a 4-pin mini-DIN connector. 4 pins means there's the potential for 4 conductors in the cable. In the case of S-Video, these 4 conductors are used for the Chroma and Luma signals, as well as the ground/shielding for each signal.

To answer your question about RF. I recently used composite to view VHS and LaserDiscs and honestly the video signal is pretty neat , not HD, but I can't complain. I think it even looks worse on HDTV as it tends to smooth the analog picture more. Some years ago I used RF for tv channels on hdtv and it was horrible. idk how we used this back in the day. The image quality was like high(er) resolution mid 90s FMV game. I would say the image resolution is on par with VHS but half the colors seem to have been missing like turning down saturation on an image. Maybe it works better on CRT.

I feel like VHS looks better than most people remember. If you had a dirty VCR, a dirty or degraded VHS tape, or something recorded off the TV, or any combination of these things, you could have very bad looking video quality. But if you had a nice, fresh pre-recorded VHS tape on a nice and clean VCR, with composite AV cables going into a decent TV, the image really isn't bad at all. A VHS on an HDTV will look horrible, for the same reasons retro games tend to.

Here in the States we no longer have analog TV broadcast, so cable is now a digital signal. You either get it, or you don't. When you do, it's crystal clear HD. Compared to back in the day with analog broadcast over RF cable, you might get a snowy or scrambled channel, especially over antenna. For a while, HDTVs came with both an analog and digital coaxial input. So there was the potential to use old analog cable on an HDTV. I couldn't imagine that looking very good.

[RCBH928]

It's not just hardware, it's all software too, whether it's that £3 copy of NHL Hitz you bought for the Gamecube, the latest Call of Duty game, or the £270 copy of Alien Soldier.

It's often used as an excuse for jacked up prices on hardware though. You are definitely paying more than you would on eBay, but it does give you peace of mind that if you have an issue a few months or even a year down the line you can just return it to the store for a replacement or refund in the form of store credit (there's the catch).

I see what they did there. Its easier for them to give 2-year warranty on everything, will give them good reputation, and if the console gets damage its a £100 pound in sales for other products. Pretty smart!

But, if you highlight specific text, then when you click the quote button it will only quote that text which is highlighted

would be more intuitive if the posts where to the side of the reply box instead of having to scroll up and down

[RCBH928]

@Ziggy587

I looked up some pictures of older consoles including the Dreamcast and I no longer wonder why no one used anything other than composite cables. Seems like consoles had a custom port for the video output that turned composite on the other end except for PSX that had composite jacks. So its normal to assume that most people didn't know any better picture could come out of that. Heck the only reason I know about image quality difference is because of the internet, go back to 1994 and the only thing I would know is to connect the wires to make the machine "work".

At this point I do not even know how to get the better signals out of those consoles without a hardware modification that you would be crazy to touch your brand new consoles to do.

Speaking of composite being the cheap alternative, its cheap but there are some head scratchers. If they wanted to make things as cheap as possible why would they even put any ports that hardly any one would ever use like Dreamcast serial pot, N64 expansion port, PSX parallel I/O port. Most people would have benefited from an RBG out cable.

as for VHS I feel you are absolutely correct. DVD looked like HD compared to VHS, but I never remember watching VHS and thinking boy this image looks bad.