The Comic Book Thread

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Raging Justice
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

Post by Raging Justice »

RCBH928 wrote:I do not read comics, I actually thought there were dead and making money off the franchise from movies and tv shows but in defense of Batman he is probably my favorite " hero" simply because he is much more realistic. A super hero is fun but later I found it to get ridiculous as they kept making characters each with a unique capability it just withers the overall significance of a super hero character. Shooting lasers, freezing, fires, wind, flying, you name it. I also can't explain why some super heros like spiderman are more popular than Green Arrow.

I must add that the "world" of the super hero adds a lot to the character. A lot of the reason I like Batman is because the settings of Gotham city but I am more in the Tim Burton/Gothic Batman and not the cheesy "comic" batman from the 60s tv show. I think the original was the cheesy comedic one? I never read the comics.


A lot of people think of Adam West when they think of cheesy Batman, but there was a show even before that which had some silliness as well I believe. It was from 1943 featuring Lewis Wilson. I think it was just a limited series though

I used to love Spider-Man when I was younger, but found him less interesting as I got older. I find heroes who constantly have to make funny one liners kind of annoying, unless it is done in an intentionally cheesy way like you see in a lot of old 80s action movies. Buffy was another character that used to get a bit annoying with all of the one liners. I generally prefer more serious heroes. I have to admit though, Spider-Man has had some excellent movies, some of which are quite recent.

Green Arrow on the CW was a great show for like two seasons, then it kind of went downhill like most of the DC shows on CW. A lot of what made Green Arrow so good early on though was that it felt very much like Batman. The first season of Daredevil on Netflix was pretty great too and felt a little bit like a Batman show.

I wish someone would do a real Batman show though, and Gotham doesn't count in my opinion. There are so many unbelievability good Batman, comic book stories that could more easily be told in the long form format of a TV show versus the 2 hour run time of a movie.
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marurun
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

Post by marurun »

I think Spider-Man's quips are supposed to be a reflection of his youth and also his use of humor to mask his self-doubt. It certainly become a trope and can easily be overused, but done well it's an important aspect of his character that isn't, to my knowledge, just supposed to be able to be distilled down to him simply being a witty one-liner machine.
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Michi
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

Post by Michi »

I think the history of Batman is often more interesting than Batman himself, and usually explains away some of his weird inconsistencies. Like, Batman was originally more of a detective (Detective Comics!) than a "crime fighter", and back in the 40s even private detectives carried guns, hence the gun. Then they were trying to appeal to a younger audience, so Robin was invented. Then they didn't want anyone getting any weird "ideas" about what these two costumed dudes were maybe getting up to, so they had to throw some girls into the mix. And so on, and so forth. Some of it gets kinda funny and even maddening the more you look into it.

But it's also kinda nice, because it gives you a lot of different interpretations of the character to choose from, that may not all be quite the same, but are usually similar enough to still be recognizable. So if you don't like one interpretation, you can choose a different one. Like the gritter stuff? Then they've got that. Don't like the grittier stuff, but liked what you saw on Batman: The Animated Series? Good news! They've continued that storyline in comic form, so you're not left out either. Everyone wins.

Unless you're obsessed with consistency. In which case, I'm sorry.
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Ziggy
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

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Re: Batman and Robin silliness.

Until recently, I had no idea there were multiple people (in the comics) that acted as Robin. Or Batman himself, for that matter. I don't mind the character Robin per se, as in the dynamic duo. There's a lot going on psychologically, which is interesting. But as I suspected, and a quick Google search seems to confirm, the character of Robin was originally invented to make the Batman comics appeal to a younger audience. The costume was a product of it's era. So yeah, a yellow cape totally doesn't REALISTICALLY fit in with Batman trying to be a stealthy ninja. I guess in modern takes, they kept the character's colors for tradition or something like that. Or maybe just the visual style? To make him stand out on the page against Batman? But what REALLY bothers me about Robin's costume is from the waist down. I mean, put on some freaking pants already! Again, realistically, you wouldn't have bare skin like this while crime fighting. Hell, I tend to wear pants even when doing more mundane activities with less risk of physical abuse. And those... shoes, if you can call them that. More like elf slippers? Not exactly standard combat footwear, I don't think. And again, as far as what would be realistic goes... He's basically wearing his Flying Grayson's costume. At least, the same colors. And it certainly looks like a circus costume. You'd think someone would piece it together that there's a mask vigilante wearing the same colors and around the same age as the orphan son of the Flying Graysons. Batman wouldn't allow him to wear that costume for that reason alone, it would be too easy for someone to figure out his identity. As I understand it, the character's appearance was created before the origin story. But still.

I like the modern Robin costumes, where he still has yellow and red but he's wearing boots and pants. That's tolerable. They poke fun at the yellow cape at the end of Dark Victory. Batman tells Dick that he should rethink the color, to which he sternly says no on account of it being his family's color. They also threw in there that Robin was his mother's nickname for him. It's easy to forgive the name Robin and the yellow cape after reading Dark Victory. Still, put some boots and pants on!

As far as Robin and all of the other unrealistic things that happen, I mean, it's a comic. I choose to employ suspension of disbelief. Things are a lot more enjoyable when you do. For a while, I was going down that road. Getting annoyed at things because of how outlandish or unrealistic they were. But I mean, if I wanted realism, I wouldn't be reading a comic book.

But as far as Batman doing things that would cause severe injuries, well that actually has happened! I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but two characters from The Long Halloween are most definitely severely injured and crippled in Dark Victory. One of them by Batman.


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I read Snow, the Legends of the Dark Knight 5 issue series regarding the origin of Mr. Freeze. It was the first Batman comic I've read so far that I was kind of bored with. I mean, if you gave me the story in bullet points I would think it sounded alright. But in execution, I think it fell kind of flat. I don't know, maybe it was the mood I was in when I read it. SPOILERS, but you got two main things going on. The origin of Mr. Freeze and Batman assembling some kind of team to aid in his crime fighting. The later being an interesting premise.

A Batman still early in his career, pre-Robin, has identified that he can't accomplish all that he wants to all by himself. So he assembles this team to help with gathering intel and research and stuff like that. But the minimal field work gets them into hot water, and by the end of the book he abandons the whole thing. It was actually the more interesting part of Snow.

The main plot was the origin of Mr. Freeze, but it just felt flat. A man's wife is terminally ill with no cure. He works as a scientist on some kind of cryogenics project that is kept vague, probably so they don't have to worry about the science and technobabble. He tries to somehow treat his wife, which is not explained at all, but ends up messing her up, which also isn't explained. It's really his own fault, it's the one Snow is actually clear about. His co-workers changed the routine or whatever (again, they're not totally clear) and he didn't double check before blindly running this... whatever it is he's doing... on his wife. And then somehow he becomes Mr. Freeze. It really is unclear how it all happens. Anyway, the thing with his wife and possible his own physical change causes him to go insane I guess. Is this a common thing for Batman villains? To turn into a super villain by insanity caused by trauma? So now Mr. Freeze is hell bent on saving his wife and stopping those who wanted to use this cryogenics tech for evil. But he's clearly insane. But not in a Joker or Two Face kind of way, he seems just completely detached from reality. Hallucinating his wife and his surrounding being much more cheerful than they really are.

Two things would have fixed Snow, in my opinion. There was not enough quality time spent with Victor Fries before becoming Mr. Freeze. If they would have made Victor more sympathetic, especially with the situation with his wife, the events would have been more impactful. And I can understand wanted to stay vague to a point regarding the cryogenics, but having NO details of how anything works or WHAT Victor was trying to do to cure his wife makes me not care at all about what happened. Mostly because I don't understand what happened. All that is really explained is that Victor wants his project to be used for medicinal purposes or possibly a deterrent but most definitely not as a weapon. It's easy to understand how it's used as a weapon, it's a freaking gun that freezes things lol. But the medicinal side of the project is not explained at all. The explanation in the movie Batman and Robin was actually better!

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edit: Forgot to say this about the Joker... With the fans that the character has, and what I have seen of him, I had high hopes for the Joker in the comics. I mean, the Nicholson and Ledger performances stand on their own. And the Joker from Arkham Asylum was very entertaining. Maybe not the character as written, per se, but Mark Hamill's performance was just a delight. But so far of what I've seen of the Joker in the comics has been very, I don't know, flat. Just sort of a color by numbers character. Granted, I haven't read many Joker-centric stories yet. Just The Man Who Laughs, but even in that the Joker seemed sort of one dimensional. The Joker has appeared in other stories I've read so far, but he's just sort of there. Like, "Hey, I'm the Joker! Hahaha!" I still haven't read The Killing Joke yet, that one seems to get praise. So we'll see.
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

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Re: Robin...

So I've read The Gauntlet and about half of Robin: Year One, and I have some new thoughts on the character of Robin. I'll have to spoiler tag this for anyone that hasn't read these stories...

In the Adam West TV series, and the movies (Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, The Dark Knight Rises) the character of Robin is played by an adult. A young adult, but still an adult. But in the comics, Robin is very much a minor. How young seems to depend on the specific comic, but mid teens seems to be right. And let's assume it's perfectly acceptable for Batman to put him in ludicrously dangerous situations time and time again. The fact is that he's still a kid, and people want to cause great harm to him. Maybe now that I'm older I'm seeing this in a different way, but it seems so much worse knowing that Robin is a minor getting beat up by adults compared to Batman getting beat up. So far my only comic exposure to Robin has been The Gauntlet and Robin: Year One, but so far he's had it rough. In The Gauntlet, a mob boss wants Robin dead or alive. And the mob boss even acknowledges that Robin is a kid, so it's not like he's unaware of this when he puts out the dead or alive order. And in Robin: Year One, Two-Face attempts to murder Robin and beats him to near death with a bat. If Batman got beaten to near death it would be like, "Oh, that sucks." But having Robin, a child, beaten nearly to death just seems so much more repulsively violent. I guess it's like in movies when a human gets killed it's like "oh whatever" but when a dog is killed it's like "NOOOOOOO!"

And yes, I am aware of Death in the Family. Crazy that people actually voted for him to be killed LOL. Although I saw the vote counts, and it was fairly close to even IIRC.

Also, I'm not a hypocrite for what I said above about suspension of disbelief. Enjoying something despite unrealistic things is not the same as enjoying something that's upsetting or disturbing.
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Ack
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

Post by Ack »

Ha, and here I was going to tell you to read A Death in the Family.

Robin existed as part of a trend in comics in the 1940s and '50s to have a kid be present that kid readers could see themselves as (see also Bucky in Captain America, Speedy for Green Arrow, Aqualad for Aquaman, Kid Flash to Flash, the Cyclone Kids to Crimson Tornado, so on and so forth). During the morality push in the 1950s against comics that led to the Comics Code Authority, these kinds of characters were heavily criticized for being in "pedophiliac" relationships with superheroes. As a reaction, comics went less violent, more campy, and stayed that way for a few decades. This is why Adam West's version of Batman is why it is.

There have been at least five Robins, though many have aged up and become other superheroes/villains.

Anyway, you've now read plenty of Batman. Time to read about the greatest superhero of them all:

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Re: The Comic Book Thread

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My problem with the Joker is that the comics all just call him crazy, with no rhyme or reason to a potential diagnosis. And that would be fine, except so many people who write about comics hold him up as such an iconic villain who plumbs the depths of human psychology, and so many comic authors write about relishing the opportunity to explore chaos and the human psyche, except I don’t see any human psyche in the Joker. He’s just a random flavor of evil crazy that varies by the author. Whatever themes people seem to want to impose on the character don’t actually match anything that I’ve actually read of the comics.

If the Joker were generic evil chaos crazy and that was it I’d have no problem, but he’s played up as this big psychological counterpart to Batman and all I can muster is “whatever, man.” So basically, my problem with the Joker is he keeps getting out on a pedestal and there’s no reason to do so.
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

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Yes, that's mostly what I have experienced so far. The Joker is almost comedic relief. The Saturday Morning Cartoon version of a villain from a rated R movie. But I have yet to read some of the major Joker titles, which I think is maybe were all of the praise comes from. The Killing Joke, A Death in the Family, and Arkham Asylum seem to be the big ones.
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

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I can see why the Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale Batman comics are so highly regarded. They are well written, and I love the artwork.

Currently I am reading Haunted Knight (Loeb/Sale) and I had to screenshot this one frame. Bruce Wayne is hosting a Halloween costume party, and I absolutely love this establishing shot.

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It's really fun to pick things out. Like Dracula, The Mummy, the Tin Man, Captain Hook and Peter Pan, et cetera. A Big Daddy from Bioshock! LOL, I know it's just a generic deep sea suit. But holy shit, is that Tik-Tok from Return to Oz?! And I actually laughed out loud when I spotted Waldo!
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Re: The Comic Book Thread

Post by rainingman »

Ziggy587 wrote: Funny you brought that up, because I've been thinking about this. I was somewhat confused. I've heard the term "graphic novel" before, but I always thought that was something different than a comic. But it seems they can be used interchangeably, to some extent. Like, if a number of comic issues are collected into a book, you can call that a graphic novel. I always thought a graphic novel was just that. Something that someone wrote, in a comic book style, with the intentions of it being a book. And I thought collected comic issues, or an omnibus, were still comics. But no, it seems you can call them graphic novels.


Sorry for the late reply. Yeah, they are used interchangeably, much like "novel" and "memoir" I guess. In that a memoir is a kind of a novel, a subset of the latter.




As for what's up reading-wise: Gravity's Rainbow is one of my favorite novels, and it is terribly, beautifully graphic in its use of language. The language evokes so much. Then I came across this version/adaptation/tribute by Brad Wetzel; it is just Episode 1 of Pynchon's 900-page novel. If any of you can, please do read the first 10 pages or so, even if only on Google Books before reading the adaptation linked to. It is simply phenomenal literature. Pynchon's works as a whole problematize common historical narratives of what we call the Market Revolution. Graphic adaptations of his works--of which there are a few--could take his take on history to many young readers, which would be Something.
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