Guides to jumpstart your Retrogaming lifestyle
User avatar
Jamisonia
128-bit
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:21 pm
Location: Washington, DC

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by Jamisonia Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:23 pm

I just did a lot of testing and picture taking using a Dreamcast on a Samsung Plasma TV model number PN42C450. I bought it from hhgregg about a month ago

http://www.hhgregg.com/ProductDetail.as ... ctID=24576

This is a very nice TV btw for the price. Only a shame it doesn't do 1080p but oh well.

The test is mainly concerning the aspect ratio that the Dreamcast VGA box produces. This TV allows a unique way to do this because its Pillarboxes when displaying 4:3 material are grey, not black like LCDs, presumably to prevent burn in. This allowed me to see what aspect ratio the Dreamcast was displaying. I will also test the monoprice VGA to HDMI adapter using the HDMI ports, and I will test the mad catz Light Blaster on House of the Dead 2.

The first test I connected the Dreamcast via a VGA box, with the VGA cable connected to the TV's PC port. I tested two games to see what aspect ratio the Dreamcast produced through its VGA box. The first game was Sonic Adventure 2 a 4:3 game, the second was Rayman 2 a 16:9 game. The interesting thing is on all games the Dreamcast aspect ratio is slightly narrower than the amount of space its supposed to fill.

Image


The TV is producing the gray bars, the Dreamcast is producing the black bars.

The same thing happens in a widescreen image.

Image

As you can see the Dreamcast is still outputting slightly narrow black bars. I know its the Dreamcast because my TV outputs gray bars. So neither the 4:3 image or 16:9 image is true.

I tested this same thing using the composite side of the VGA box and got the same results. Unfortunately I don't have regular Dreamcast cables to test it that way, however; I believe a thrift store near me does, so I'll keep you updated.

The second thing was to test it using the Monoprice VGA to HDMI adapter and connecting the Dreamcast through its HDMI port instead of VGA port. Interesting the aspect ratio was different.

Image

This image is slightly to the left, but still appears wider.

Image


This time on Rayman I decided to take a picture of the Video Options screen, 1 because I didn't want to sit through the cut scenes again, and 2 because it shows that is has screen calibration. I moved the picture to the right slightly to find it was not cutting very much off and when calibrated it fills up the entire screen, its a full 16:9 image from the VGA to HDMI box.


The Monoprice VGA to HDMI box is a neat little tool, those that have TVs without VGA ports can utilize, or if for some reason you don't want to use the TV's VGA port. One good reason you might want to do this is too connect your Dreamcast into your audio receiver, the audio goes to the speakers, and the video goes to the TV. Often these receivers accept 3-4 HDMI sources, with 1 HDMI out to your TV, which can make your setup easier but allowing your receiver to act as an electronic switch box, and connecting your Dreamcast via HDMI in this way opens up a world of settings with audio syncing to video if you're so inclined.

Here's how it works.

Image
Image

You'll need this:
DC VGA Box
VGA cable (recommend short length to reduce clutter I use a 1.5 SVGA cable from monoprice, SVGA and VGA can be used interchangeably)
3.5 mm to RCA adapter (same length as VGA cable recommended for ease)
HDMI Cable
Monoprice VGA to HDMI box

All of this but the DC VGA box can be purchased at monoprice for cheap.

This is a link to the VGA to HDMI box

http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

Image

Image
Image
Image

You have to plug in the VGA to HDMI box. You'll then get two LEDs. One that shows you its plugged in, and one that shows you its outputting HDMI signal.

The coolest thing about this box is it combines the Audio and Video signals into the one HDMI cable, which is what allows you to connect it to an Audio Receiver first. I also noticed the sound is notably higher using this box then connecting with a 3.5mm cable straight into my TV, probably because the sound is going through the receiver first, and not the TV.

Here are the specs of it:

The supported VGA input signals are:
640x480 @ 60 & 75hz Dreamcast

800x600 @ 60 & 75hz

1024x768 @ 60 & 75hz

1280x720 @ 60 & 75hz

1280x768 @ 60 & 75hz

1280x960 @ 60hz & 75hz

1280x1024 @ 60hz & 75hz

The supported HDMI output signals are:
480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

You also could use this box to connect your laptop too, although mine has to adjust its resolution to fit as by ThinkPad is 1280x800.


Lastly I tested the MadCatz Dreamcast Light gun with HOTD 2 using both the VGA box and VGA to HDMI box. Interestingly I was able to fire shots that registered. They were very inaccurate, and it often took several shots to make my mark, but nevertheless the Plasma did pick up on the light gun signals. Even more surprising was that with the VGA to HDMI box it was more accurate than the VGA box alone. I still wouldn't recommend this TV for light guns, but its cool that they did register.

Hope this helps somebody
User avatar
CRTGAMER
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:59 am
Location: Southern California

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:17 pm

Thanks for posting this. Great to know that VGA Dreamcast can work through HDMI with very good image results. The non distracting grey bars on the sides look fine, helps to keep the 4:3 image. I am tempted going this route, since my HD CRT doesn't have VGA. Right now S-Video looks crisp, but a bump up to 640x480 on an HD is definitely better! I think also on a HD 4:3 the grey bars would probably disappear.

I also had problems with the Lightgun, impressive that the Plasma was able to at least try to pickup the lightgun through the VGA-HDMI signal. I suspect if you tried the calibration screen the up and down works fine but side to side results in multiple gun sites displayed.

Curious how a PS2 with a Guncon 2 set to 100hz mode would work on the Plasma with a component hookup. On my HD CRT I had the same results as the Dreamcast Lightgun with up and down accuracy but side to side doesn't work. The Wega HD CRT is 120hz, which kills lightgun support.

The VGA to HDMI mode might be something to try though. The Dreamcast Lightgun works beautiful on three different VGA monitors I tried. The computer monitors are all a lower hertz though.
Last edited by CRTGAMER on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

Image
Image
User avatar
Mod_Man_Extreme
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 6847
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:05 am
Location: Statesville, North Carolina

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by Mod_Man_Extreme Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:28 pm

Jamisonia wrote:Lastly I tested the MadCatz Dreamcast Light gun with HOTD 2 using both the VGA box and VGA to HDMI box. Interestingly I was able to fire shots that registered. They were very inaccurate, and it often took several shots to make my mark, but nevertheless the Plasma did pick up on the light gun signals. Even more surprising was that with the VGA to HDMI box it was more accurate than the VGA box alone. I still wouldn't recommend this TV for light guns, but its cool that they did register.

I'm guessing it's due to the similar phosphor technology between Plasma Display Panels and CRT's.

Did you try to adjust the gun on the calibration screen in the game's options menu? It may be simply a quick adjustment and voila, working lightguns on a flat panel.

My thinking is that your particular panel may actually actively change it's refresh rate accordingly to the input signal so there may be some hope yet for older lightgun games (albeit only on Dreamcast).
My Consoles:
Genesis - Nomad - SegaCD - GameGear - Sega Saturn - Dreamcast - NES - SNES - N64 - Gamecube - Wii - Playstation - PSone & LCD - PS2 - PS3 - Xbox - 3DS

Niode wrote:Send him a dodgy cheque. Make it out to Scammy McScammerson.


Check out my sale thread below, NeoGeo MVS carts & Arcade gear wanted!:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11366
User avatar
Anapan
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 2897
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:15 am
Location: BC, Canada

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by Anapan Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:08 am

I just got a CSY-2100 SCART-Component converter in the mail.
It works perfectly on every system I have a SCART cable for. Here's a comparison pic of Space Funky Bob on SNES through S-Video and the CSY-2100 on my 36" SD Wega
Link
GamesX Wiki
I'm going to mod it for RCA audio later today (Why'd they leave it out?).
ImageImageImageImage
ImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Shogun
32-bit
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:21 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by Shogun Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:14 am

Thanks for the info about the monoprice box. I was curious how well the image would look.
User avatar
CRTGAMER
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:59 am
Location: Southern California

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:54 am

Jamisonia wrote:The second thing was to test it using the Monoprice VGA to HDMI adapter and connecting the Dreamcast through its HDMI port instead of VGA port. Interesting the aspect ratio was different.

The Monoprice VGA to HDMI box is a neat little tool, those that have TVs without VGA ports can utilize, or if for some reason you don't want to use the TV's VGA port. One good reason you might want to do this is too connect your Dreamcast into your audio receiver, the audio goes to the speakers, and the video goes to the TV. Often these receivers accept 3-4 HDMI sources, with 1 HDMI out to your TV, which can make your setup easier but allowing your receiver to act as an electronic switch box, and connecting your Dreamcast via HDMI in this way opens up a world of settings with audio syncing to video if you're so inclined.

This is a link to the VGA to HDMI box

http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... 1&format=2

You have to plug in the VGA to HDMI box. You'll then get two LEDs. One that shows you its plugged in, and one that shows you its outputting HDMI signal.

Jamisonia sold me the above VGA to HDMI adaptor. My HD CRT does not have a VGA input so I thought this might be a way. Tried both a Dreamcast and a PC Laptop, unfortunately no pic. Just to be sure, I also tested the adaptor an a LCD. The laptop worked great, even with the LCD widescreen turn on. As expected the lower resolution 640x480 of the Dreamcast did not work on the LCD. Point is moot anyways since I was trying to get a Dreamcast lightgun to work on my HD CRT. Oh well, still great to keep with the laptop for a large screen hookup.

End result is if your HD LCD or HD Plasma has no VGA input, this looks to be a great option to plug the laptop in. Confirm the 640x480 VGA mode to hook up a dreamcast. HD CRT's right now probably won't work with a VGA to HDMI analog to digital conversion. A last VGA HD CRT adaptor resort might be a VGA to Component adaptor. Maybe a complete analog signal might work, but that 120hz screen could also be the issue.
Image
CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

Image
Image
User avatar
wip3outguy7
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 2805
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Austin

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by wip3outguy7 Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:54 pm

A really interesting overview about scanlines and CRTs I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmgvwLkDxl4

I already knew a lot of this but he does an incredible job of explaining things and putting them into layman's terms.
User avatar
CRTGAMER
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:59 am
Location: Southern California

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Thu May 26, 2011 11:14 am

I just received this PM from mjmjr25, prefer to answer here in case others may have an idea.
mjmjr25 wrote:I'm told you are my go to on this - and rather than start one of those 1 reply threads, i'll just pm direct (hope that's alright.)

I have a consolized atomiswave and a consolized MVS, both have composite/s-vd/component out.

On my upstairs TV (Toshiba 37" LCD - about 3.5 years old) all av outs work fine.

On my downstairs TV (Toshiba 40" LCD - about 2 years old) all av outs work fine on the atomiswave, on the MVS all av outs work except the component.

So, from the above, I know that the component cable is fine, the component out on both tv's are fine (since the atomiswave works on both) and it would appear the component on the MVS works fine since it does work on one of the TV's.

So...any thoughts on why the s-vid and composite would work on the MVS downstairs, but not the component?

Thanks for your time in advance...

-Mike
I am not too familiar with the Neo Geo Console, but it does have an unusual resolution output. The 320x224 resolution has to be converted to 480p for component. If I am reading Wiki correctly the MVS puts out RGB not Component.
Wiki wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_Geo_(console)#Display

Display resolution: 320×224 (many games only used the centermost 304 pixels)
Color palette: 65,536 (16-bit)
Maximum colors on screen: 4,096 (12-bit)
Maximum sprites on screen: 384
Minimum sprite size: 1×2
Maximum sprite size: 16×512
Maximum sprites per scanline: 96
Background layers: 0
Aspect ratio: 4:3
A/V output: RF, composite video, RGB (with separate 21 pin RGB cable FCG-9).
Perhaps the Toshiba 40" LCD does not support the resolution? Maybe the NEO GEO RGB might work thru the VGA input?
Image
CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

Image
Image
User avatar
Amplibax
16-bit
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:58 pm
Location: NB, Canada

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by Amplibax Thu May 26, 2011 5:30 pm

This is an awesome guide CRTGAMER.

I have a question for you. I am searching for the perfect TV for my retro game room and I was wondering if you know if any of the Sony Wega TVs has VGA inputs on them. I can see many of them DVI, but VGA would be ideal for the Dreamcast VGA box I have. I can see most of them have S-Video and Component, but it would be amazing to find a CRT tv that has, VGA, Component and S-Video.
User avatar
CRTGAMER
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:59 am
Location: Southern California

Re: CRT vs LCD, Video Inputs, Lightguns on HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Thu May 26, 2011 6:38 pm

Amplibax wrote:This is an awesome guide CRTGAMER.

I have a question for you. I am searching for the perfect TV for my retro game room and I was wondering if you know if any of the Sony Wega TVs has VGA inputs on them. I can see many of them DVI, but VGA would be ideal for the Dreamcast VGA box I have. I can see most of them have S-Video and Component, but it would be amazing to find a CRT tv that has, VGA, Component and S-Video.
Thanks!

I have not seen a HD CRT Wega with a VGA input, maybe there is one out there? I use SVideo for the Dreamcast for the HD, VGA thru a CRT computer monitor for House of the Dead. Adaptors may not work either. I have tried a VGA to HDMI adaptor with a laptop and Dreamcast, did not work on my Wega.
Image
CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

Image
Image
Return to Guides

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests