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Ack
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by Ack Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:52 am

marurun wrote:Several folks have brought up that the SNES has a 6-button pad included, but IMO it is the worst fighting game pad possible. I always found the d-pad inadequate and the L and R buttons hard to adequately use in play.


Seriously? Worse than the Jaguar pad, the 3DO pad, the beefy Sega Saturn Model 1 controller? Hell, the Sega Genesis Model 1 controller, what with having to hold start to access my kick moves in SF2. I get along perfectly well with the SNES controller and can perform precise moves just fine. I even prefer my L and R shoulder buttons, because I can use separate fingers to manipulate them as opposed to trying complex maneuvers with just my thumb over the face buttons.

CD AGES wrote:
I'll see your Samurai Shodown and raise you Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury, Fatal Fury 2, Mortal Kombat II, Mortal Kombat 3, Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, Primal Rage, TMNT: Tournament Fighters, Super Street Fighter II, and World Heroes, all of which were superior on the SNES. (I will admit that Ballz 3D and Shaq Fu are equally awesome on both consoles, however.)


I'm sorry, but you can't raise him SNES UMK3. The Genesis version IS the superior of the two 16 bit home carts, with less buggy, more stable gameplay, and more content in the form of battle stages (almost double the amount that are available on SNES). SNES UMK3 is a MAJOR disappointment (and this coming from a guy who owns both) on the platform ESPECIALLY when you considered how well standard MK3 turned out on the SNES compared to the terrible Genesis version. It was the reverse when UMK3 is concerned.

I will also throw in Fatal Fury Special, Fighter's History, Killer Instinct, MMPR: Fighting Edition, Power Instinct, Street Fighter II, Street Fighter II Turbo Hyper Fighting, Street Fighter Alpha 2, and World Heroes 2...none of which made it to the Genesis.

Umm... you are aware that II Turbo IS available in full in the Special Champion Edition Cart (exactly like how Champ Edition is available on the SNES Turbo Cart)...?

Also, the Genesis d-pad is not that great. I very much prefer the SNES d-pad for fighting games. (While it will blister your thumb after a while, it is much more accurate in my opinion.)

Well, on the flipside, the push buttons on the SNES pad are nowhere near the quality of the Genesis 6 pad. I've always had a major gripe with the face buttons on the SNES pad, ESPECIALLY when fighters are concerned. They just feels too mushy to me. Furthermore, i really dislike the concave design on the X and Y buttons on the pad. As a result, I've replaced the stock SNES pads with the better built interact model controllers which kinda look like SFC controllers.

It simply cannot compete with the SNES's fighters

I respectfully disagree. The 2 biggest most importantly played fighters during that time(II Dash Turbo and UMK3), perform better on the Genesis. You can have all the other fighting titles the SNES has over Genesis in terms of better ports and exclusives, but those 2 fighters alone make up for it.


I kind of like Noob Saibot being able to perform stage fatalities though.

I know, the SNES port of UMK3 is awful compared to the Genesis port. And yes, Street Fighter 2 Plus: Championship Edition did have some nice additions over the SNES port. That said, I have some criticism of your comments. First, since you brought up historical relevance of the games in question, it's also worth noting that Genesis owners had to wait several more months to get their hands on SF2 Plus CE so it could be made comparable to the SNES owners' version. Second, I disagree that UMK3 was the "biggest most importantly played fighter" of the era, or even of its series during that era. I'd say MK and MK2 were more important for creating the series and introducing concepts like the Fatality, and then refining the gameplay and introducing far more of the series mainstays. By the time we got to MK3, the series had been around for several years, and Midway decided the series needed pre-set combos, which I find quite limiting. If anything, I'd argue MK2 is the pinnacle, and the SNES version is considered better than both the Genesis and the 32X port.

But above all, to base an argument on quality of a console's fighting game library based on two games is both to insult the consoles' libraries and the fighting game genre. Across all regions, the Super Famicom/Super Nintendo had around 75 fighting games. I can't find specific info on the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive, though I believe the fighting game library was around 50 there as well. In the United States alone, it was closer to 45 and 35, but even then you're basing your argument on quality on...4 out of roughly 80 games (just including base console statistics)?

That said, if you wish to argue historical relevance as the only factor to consider, I still think you should expand the list to include at minimum each entry in the two top series: Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. You don't have to go into Street Fighter Alpha 2 if you don't want to (though hey, the SNES pulled it off surprisingly well, all things considered). You can avoid discussing the Fatal Furies, Killer Instinct, WeaponLord, Power Instinct, the ClayFighters and so forth.
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by nightrnr Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:37 am

pierrot wrote:
marurun wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:The official 6-button Genesis pad is such an incredibly nice pad. I prefer it slightly to the Saturn pad even.


Whoa, whoa... Let's not be hasty, here. It is a very good pad, but I have to disagree on it beating the Saturn pad. And I would actually consider the NEC Avenue Pad 6 for the PC Engine to be almost as nice as the Genesis 6 button pad.


I agree. The Genesis 6-button controller is marvelous and all, but it's pretty hard to contend with the Saturn pad for 2D. If we're talking about the Japanese 6-button pad, then, maybe--.

Whaaah!?! The Genesis 6-button controller has essentially the same damn D-pad as the Saturn (2nd gen) controller (and by "damn", I mean "you can stop here this is digital controller perfection). I don't think it outright "BEATS" the Saturn, but it's almost on par.

I've always enjoyed the control more on the Genesis than the SNES though. It doesn't phase me anymore, mind you, as the SNES pad is quite good. But when I was 1st learning moves on Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat, I struggled with the SNES ports a lot more than the Genesis ones.

To this day, SSFII on Genesis is my favorite port of the Street Fighter II series (or the most enjoyable to play anyhow). And really, that game should be the benchmark right there IMIWAYO (In My Insignificant "Who Asked You" Opinion :P ).
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by AppleQueso Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:27 am

pierrot wrote:
marurun wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:The official 6-button Genesis pad is such an incredibly nice pad. I prefer it slightly to the Saturn pad even.


Whoa, whoa... Let's not be hasty, here. It is a very good pad, but I have to disagree on it beating the Saturn pad. And I would actually consider the NEC Avenue Pad 6 for the PC Engine to be almost as nice as the Genesis 6 button pad.


I agree. The Genesis 6-button controller is marvelous and all, but it's pretty hard to contend with the Saturn pad for 2D. If we're talking about the Japanese 6-button pad, then, maybe--.


I just prefer the 6-button controller's overall shape. if it had shoulder buttons it'd pretty much be perfect.
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CD AGES
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by CD AGES Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:25 am

Ack wrote:I kind of like Noob Saibot being able to perform stage fatalities though

Shame on you for liking anything about Noob Saibot :lol: Most broken fighting game character in the HISTORY of fighting games. But Hey I hear ya man. +1

That said, I have some criticism of your comments. First, since you brought up historical relevance of the games in question, it's also worth noting that Genesis owners had to wait several more months to get their hands on SF2 Plus CE so it could be made comparable to the SNES owners' version.

Yes they did wait! and it was a wait well worth it if you ask me because not only did they get the update to SNES World Warrior, but Genesis owners also got the update to the update they received :lol: Goodtimes no!? it's not like SNES owners didn't have to wait for their respective version of II Dash/II Dash Turbo cart, because they did... correct?

Second, I disagree that UMK3 was the "biggest most importantly played fighter" of the era, or even of its series during that era. I'd say MK and MK2 were more important for creating the series and introducing concepts like the Fatality, and then refining the gameplay and introducing far more of the series mainstays. By the time we got to MK3, the series had been around for several years

I apologize. Perhaps I should have been a bit more clear what I was trying to get across with my quoted statement. I'm talking about these 2 games in terms of the competitive fighting game crowd and popularity among said community. Even when SSF2 came out, the hardcore player wasn't very keen on the regression the series took with said update as a means to win back the casual market. Most seasoned hardcore players went back to playing Hyper Fighting and stayed there up until Capcom corrected SSF with ST, which in turn was designed with the hardcore player in mind! SO, that makes Hyper Fighting the high mark of the series for that console era because obviously ST wasn't made for that 16 bit console Gen.

Now with the the MK series... MK, MK2, both great games, I wont say otherwise. As you mentioned already, MK3 unfortunately didn't quite surpass or even reach the benchmark the series made for itself with MK2... That is, until UMK3 arrived onto the scene. UMK3 is without a doubt the greatest most played game in the series PERIOD! It's a fact! It's been the sole standard for tournament play for the franchise and it stayed that way LONG after its release even in the wake of countless sequels, up until the franchise went through its recent reboot with NRS. The MK community didn't go back to previous MK installments after UMK3 and didn't even go forward up until now.
My comment wasn't with regards to innovations or contributions made by previous entries. It was about a particular entry reaching significant point within its core audience. Heck even Ed has vocally admitted the UMK3 is his favorite MK of all time.

and Midway decided the series needed pre-set combos, which I find quite limiting.

huh!? limiting!? There was no limitations made with the introduction of pre-set combos, but quite the contrary, by expanding the concept of combos as a whole for the franchise. The series pioneered the concept of Juggles. That's where the series true combos derived from since the very beginning, and juggles didn't ever go away throughout the franchise. They still played a MAJOR role in UMK3. To think otherwise is not being fully aware of true gameplay in UMK3.

But above all, to base an argument on quality of a console's fighting game library based on two games is both to insult the consoles' libraries and the fighting game genre.

I don't think I should worry about insulting the genre by not acknowledging titles like Clay Fighter, Fighter History, World Heroes :lol:
But if I have, ma bad.

That said, if you wish to argue historical relevance as the only factor to consider, I still think you should expand the list to include at minimum each entry in the two top series: Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. You don't have to go into Street Fighter Alpha 2 if you don't want to

Well, I can't because Alpha 2 isn't on the Genesis is it? and good its a good thing too because...

(though hey, the SNES pulled it off surprisingly well, all things considered).

No... the SNES version isn't anything worth talking about, So it probably had no business being on the ol' Genesis hardware :lol:
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by AppleQueso Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:29 am

CD AGES wrote:
(though hey, the SNES pulled it off surprisingly well, all things considered).

No... the SNES version isn't anything worth talking about, So it probably had no business being on the ol' Genesis hardware :lol:

It's an impressive port given the limitations. The worst port? Sure, but I wouldn't say it was worthless. At the very least it's an interesting curiosity.
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by CD AGES Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:54 am

AppleQueso wrote:At the very least it's an interesting curiosity.


I'll give you that much. Hey, I bought the damn game as soon as it came out so :lol: anyone here who first bought it thought their cart was fucked up after experiencing the first non indicating "Loading..." at the start of EVERY round!? Man those were the days dammit. Good stuff.

The main thing that I love about Alpha 2 above the visuals is the games audio department and SNES port simply cripples this aspect of the game moreso than the graphics which I can forgive at least. The games SFX dialogue is SO muffled and the soundtrack is simply horrible on the SNES sounchip (which is a shame considering how great SF2 series soundtrack sounded on the system). Perhaps the worst arcade to home port of a fighting game ever right next to CVS Pro on the PSone. So terrible :|
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by Gunstar Green Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:19 am

To be brutally honest outside of the Neo Geo AES the 16-bit home ports are all pretty bad. Yeah I enjoyed many of them at the time but I can only really play them for nostalgia purposes today.

You can argue back and forth who had the best but unfortunately they'll only be the best of the worst compared to the arcade originals. The horsepower just wasn't quite there yet.

For me personally though it seemed like overall the Takara ports of SNK games were generally better on the Genesis and Capcom fighters were generally better on the SNES. There are major exceptions to this and other issues of personal taste but in general that's how I feel about it.
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by samsonlonghair Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:08 pm

Aren't we just splitting hairs?
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They're both great consoles with many great fighters. This argument is twenty years out of date.
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by pierrot Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:50 pm

AppleQueso wrote:I just prefer the 6-button controller's overall shape. if it had shoulder buttons it'd pretty much be perfect.


Yeah, I quite prefer the Saturn controller shape to the Western 6-button controller's, but the Japanese 6-button pad doesn't dig into my palms as much, so if it's between it and the Saturn controller, I don't have too much of a preference.


samsonlonghair wrote:They're both great consoles with many great fighters. This argument is twenty years out of date.


In fairness, this discussion was supposed to incorporate the TG-16/PCE as well, but I don't really know much about the fighters on it, and it seems like a number of others in this discussion may be in the same boat. Also, if you pit Sega and Nintendo together in anything, it inevitably devolves into the console war fight, given time. I think it's approaching a law at this point.
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Re: The platform for 16-bit fighters

by marurun Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:49 pm

Ack wrote:
marurun wrote:Several folks have brought up that the SNES has a 6-button pad included, but IMO it is the worst fighting game pad possible. I always found the d-pad inadequate and the L and R buttons hard to adequately use in play.


Seriously? Worse than the Jaguar pad, the 3DO pad, the beefy Sega Saturn Model 1 controller? Hell, the Sega Genesis Model 1 controller, what with having to hold start to access my kick moves in SF2. I get along perfectly well with the SNES controller and can perform precise moves just fine. I even prefer my L and R shoulder buttons, because I can use separate fingers to manipulate them as opposed to trying complex maneuvers with just my thumb over the face buttons.


Oh, come on, Ack! I can't even have a LITTLE hyperbole? Not even a leeeeettle?

Yeah, the Jaguar pad is pretty crap. I like the original US Saturn pad, though, except for the shoulder buttons. The dpad is actually pretty good on it and the buttons are just fine. Even the shape is alright. It's just the triggers...

As for the SNES pad, I never got along well with it. I find it makes diagonals a bit difficult and I have never made much peace with shoulder buttons in fighting games in general. I think the controller is fine for many types of games, but I just can't use it for fighters. It and I, we have no middle ground in that genre. I need face buttons. I tend to just lay the pad on my knee and use fingers instead of trying to cover all the buttons with a thumb, anyway. Thumbs were not meant to throw punches and kicks.
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