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racketboy
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Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by racketboy Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:58 am

I've kinda had these thoughts in my head for quite a while, but this blog post summed it up well:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/09/col ... _givin.php

Does anyone else think it is interesting that there is such a shift in playing the game against the computer vs a human opponent?
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by foulweather Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:43 pm

Oh yea, multiplayer always feels like a completely different game from single player to me. Kindof expected since game AI is a very hard problem. I wouldn't expect a computer opponent to be equal to an experienced human opponent for a long time. Generally devs get around this by handicapping the human players, but that never feels the same. In fact, it just feels cheap.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by racketboy Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:10 pm

foulweather wrote:Oh yea, multiplayer always feels like a completely different game from single player to me. Kindof expected since game AI is a very hard problem. I wouldn't expect a computer opponent to be equal to an experienced human opponent for a long time. Generally devs get around this by handicapping the human players, but that never feels the same. In fact, it just feels cheap.


Yeah difficulty levels never seems to do anything other than add frustration. Seems like they are either really easy or really cheap. But considering experienced fighting players have defined techniques, you would think you could work those types of things into the AI.

And what about training sessions on the games -- teaching you little skills like combos, timing, juggling, stuff like that?
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by Ack Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:00 am

Honestly, beyond getting basic controls, training never really served me. Any of the tricks I picked up, I tended to do so while playing the game and figuring it out on my own.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by Dylan Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:06 am

Ack wrote:Honestly, beyond getting basic controls, training never really served me. Any of the tricks I picked up, I tended to do so while playing the game and figuring it out on my own.


Same here. The only problem is that training is never very well done, it's just you pulverizing a dummy AI. I have more fun just figuring things out mid-game, because it feels more like I'm playing the game.

Having said that, there are trickier maneuvers that I've spent time practicing in training mode, things like double half circle back, and those special moves that require a mass of button presses to use (Geese).
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by Ack Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:12 am

True, but I still consider that to be learning the controls. Knowing combos, timings, proper blocking techniques...all of that I pick up in the game.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by Mod_Man_Extreme Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:54 am

Take it from me putting to much importance on how a game changes when you're facing a live opponent is one of the worst things you can do.

I've learned to just go with the flow, when I've got the Controller/Joystick/Pad in my hands and look at the situation from all the angles as if it were a fight against the computer. Regardless of who you're fighting and whichever character they pick it'll still be bound from the same rules and physics of the computer and therefore somewhat of an extension of it so you can still have a semblance of what to expect.

Now where this differs is in the fight style where the computer might take it's time the human opponent may be a player that likes to rush their opponent as soon as the match starts. All you really need to do is find an opening to block and study your opponent as they fight to learn their play-style and be on a much more equal footing than before.

Control is also another important aspect, keeping your hands where you want them to be rather that where they're 'supposed' or 'required' to be is critical to getting an edge on your opponent. If you become extremely comfortable with a unique and different hand placement than the majority but still manage to kick ass with it then keep it that way. Good players stick to their own style apart from the pack and master it to get an edge on the competition with a personal touch.

Finally combo moves and movesets, perhaps the most overrated feature to ever be implemented in fighting games. A good fighter ignores the lists for the most part and will play the game until the combos all reveal themselves in the course of regular play only consulting it if they're confused or frustrated. The basic punch, kick, aerial and ground attacks are your best friends in any sticky situation and mastering them opens up the possibility of being able to use specials more frequently and to better effect such as special finishes and the like. Never try to overdo it and go straight to the combos as soon as you play a game for the first time, it'll most likely infuriate you and ruin the experience. Fighting against another human is the best way to hone you basic skills and add a little flash and a personal touch to your fights, learn your favorite combos and specials by heart once you've gotten all the basics out of the way and give yourself a signature move.

In the end though just have fun! Fighting against another person is all about the excitement that the unpredictability of a human opponent brings to the table so just ignore all of your pre-defined notions, play like a champ and all the pieces will fall well into place sooner or later.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by the7k Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:03 am

I dunno, I've trained against the AI on some fighters and it helped prepare me for human combat. They are different animals, but it's not a total waste to learn how to take out the AI on the hardest difficulty...

...unless the AI just sucks or the game has some totally broken 'sploit that the AI doesn't know about but all the human players will use 'til the end of the world. No one has any honor these days.

For instance, I remember playing Soul Calibur for the DC and finding that even the AI on its hardest difficulty was extremely easy, while in other games like Street Fighter IV and King of Fighters XII, turtling is at an all-time high. No amount of playing BlazBlue or Marvel vs Capcom 2 will prepare you for taking on people who just do infinite combos all the damn time.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by gradualmeltdown Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:25 am

Human players come in 2 distinctly different forms :

Players and Scrubs.

Quick identification of this is key when playing humans. Generally a "player" is someone who learns and adapts well during play. They may not be as good as you but recognize repeated patterns and strats. They will learn to punish your weaknesses over time, and hopefully make you a better player. This is what makes playing competitive fighting games fun!

A scrub is someone who refuses to learn during play. They have a predetermined idea of what is "fun" and "fair" in the game. A set of rules not from the game but in their head. They will repeat the same pattern over and over again proclaiming any move that beats it cheap. They don't care about getting better at the game because they don't want to play the actual full game. Beating these guys is really fun, don't let them get in your head, winning is fun.

As for practicing against A.I. I think it has its value. When first beginning a new game I really like programming training dummies. Its nice to find out what moves trade, whiff, or beats certain moves. Easier and quicker to learn match-up deficiencies in training mode and then test them on people. I used this to learn how to accurately punish Zangeif's lariat in SF4 for instance.
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Re: Thoughts on Transitioning to Playing Humans in Fighters

by the7k Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:18 am

gradualmeltdown wrote:Winning is fun.


Yeah, I'm afraid I don't support this attitude. You shouldn't find winning fun, you should find fun in the thrill of the fight. If fighting games are only fun when you win, it kinda implies an overt-focus on competition.

Also, I rarely have to deal with cheap tactics and broken characters from people who just want to have a good fight. People who only give a shit about their Win-Loss ratio, on the other hand...
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