Guides to jumpstart your Retrogaming lifestyle
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theclaw
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by theclaw Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:32 pm

As long as you understand the how and why. :)

One key rule is composite video and s-video are by design lossy formats. SD or HD does not matter in that specific regard, some degree of signal loss already occurs at the point of encoding.

Much of the criticism about how old games look on HDTVs results from common use of pre-damaged video. People are unrealistically expecting upscaling existing artifacts to have good results!

No scanlines is another contributor to the situation. While themselves technically an artifact, they served to disguise flaws.
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by AppleQueso Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:08 pm

CRTGAMER wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:I've never seen anyone but you use "dot crawl" to refer to something besides a composite video artifact. Wikipedia also makes no mention of any other types of "dot crawl."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl

You can call scaling issues whatever you want, but if you're going to make big, authoritative threads about video quality, it's probably best to stick to the most widely agreed upon definitions of words like that. Otherwise it will ultimately just create confusion.

Debatable of what is the right wording, I just use it to describe a similar result. Feel free to contribute with your own Guide instead of criticizing mine.

Well geez, if this is how you're going to respond to criticism I really shouldn't bother with this. Instead of using advice or corrections to improve your guides, you basically just tell me "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT MAKE YOUR OWN"

Not very constructive to say the least.
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CRTGAMER
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:33 pm

theclaw wrote:As long as you understand the how and why. :)

One key rule is composite video and s-video are by design lossy formats. SD or HD does not matter in that specific regard, some degree of signal loss already occurs at the point of encoding.

Much of the criticism about how old games look on HDTVs results from common use of pre-damaged video. People are unrealistically expecting upscaling existing artifacts to have good results!

No scanlines is another contributor to the situation. While themselves technically an artifact, they served to disguise flaws.

I see what you are saying such as a NES screen hiding the "defects" behind a composite signal. There is also a scaling issue when trying to display a non HD signal on a fixed scale HD LCD panel.

I added to the OP and moved Niode's Quote right below the scaling explanation. The picture scaling problem shown is extreme, but it shows what I'm getting at with my "Dot Crawl" description. As in a composite bleed over, imagine the pixels jumping around as a lower resolution image is in motion on a higher resolution screen.

Darryl Shreve wrote:http://blogs.wayne.edu/lighting/2012/11/08/does-size-matter/

Videos downscale well, but they don’t upscale with clarity. So what does this mean? Simply put, a larger video signal with more information will look good on larger screens and anything smaller. Conversely, a smaller image will only look good on a smaller screen. It doesn’t have enough information to upscale properly.

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Note the difference below in image quality based upon the number of pixels represented on screens with different Native Resolution sizes below. This is a SD signal and it does not upscale well to HD.

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Niode wrote:CRT doesn't have a native resolution so you don't get the same issue you get with LCDs. CRTs just display the content in the resolution it was intended to be viewed in. No up scaling required.
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CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

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theclaw
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by theclaw Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:15 pm

No. For NES it's the very opposite. Composite video causes its artifacts, not hides them.

Anyone who's opened an NES game in a tile editor knows the original graphics assets were drawn with pixel-perfect shapes and edges.
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by AppleQueso Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:36 am

How on earth did that guy get the rightmost image result? Upscaled stuff typically doesn't look very good, but in that image, the "upscaled" image actually loses picture information.

I've seen TVs do bad upscale jobs, but I've never seen anything look like that.
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by sonic2041 Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:03 am

AppleQueso wrote:How on earth did that guy get the rightmost image result? Upscaled stuff typically doesn't look very good, but in that image, the "upscaled" image actually loses picture information.

I've seen TVs do bad upscale jobs, but I've never seen anything look like that.



I was trying to figure that out myself. It looks like the number of pixels was decreased, almost like the image was downscaled.
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pakopako
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by pakopako Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:34 pm

AppleQueso wrote:I've seen TVs do bad upscale jobs, but I've never seen anything look like that.
That might be the new "quilted resolution" in some TVs...
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by isiolia Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:47 am

sonic2041 wrote:I was trying to figure that out myself. It looks like the number of pixels was decreased, almost like the image was downscaled.


The example looks artificial and deliberately misleading to me. A rough count of the "pixels" represented in that image would put it at something like 140x70, so significantly lower resolution than a Game Boy, much less a modern HD TV. Scaled image quality might not be perfect, but the extra pixels tend to get put to work for scaling algorithms.

To get a result like that, you'd have to be blowing up icons to full screen size...or downscaling to a vastly inferior display.

In the meantime, a larger CRT could introduce other image degradation, such as scan lines. It wouldn't look exactly like the source image at any size as depicted there.
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Jamisonia
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by Jamisonia Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:30 pm

AppleQueso wrote:How on earth did that guy get the rightmost image result? Upscaled stuff typically doesn't look very good, but in that image, the "upscaled" image actually loses picture information.

I've seen TVs do bad upscale jobs, but I've never seen anything look like that.


I think that is the upscaled HD Image if no interpolation is performed on the image. It is displaying 640x480 worth of pixels over a 1920x1080 field. Its still displaying the same number of pixels without filling in for any of the missing information. So its not actually upscaled at all.

Its worth it to note, the chip that performs this interpolation makes a significant difference in the quality of the upscaled imaged. Also keep in mind that TVs have the shitty ones. If one insists on playing old school games on an HD Set, and isn't satisfied with the picture, realize there are things you can do to improve it. However it can never look more accurate than it does on its native resolution TV set.
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CRTGAMER
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Re: CRT, LCD, Video Inputs, Lightgun HD and More Guides

by CRTGAMER Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:39 pm

sp957 wrote:If you have time, I was wondering if you can give me some model names of CRTs to look after on Craigslist/Goodwill?

I'm planning on making a little video game hub for my older systems (just the Genesis and Sega Saturn as of right now). So I was trying to look for a good CRT TV model with 1-2 S-Video inputs and 1-2 Component inputs.

Also, I doubt there is one out there.... but are there CRT TVs out there that have VGA to support the 480i/p resolution of the Dreamcast, including 2-3 S-Video or Component inputs for my other consoles? I always preferred CRT over LCD, and I would like to keep my Sega consoles together.

I don't know much about CRT TVs, but I always like the Sony Trinitrons.

Keep in mind the component inputs might mean 480p capability but not always if a Standar Definition 480i tube. As for VGA, I doubt you will find it in a SD 480i tube since the resolution is not high enough. I have not seen VGA in HD tube TVs either, but there has got to be one out there. The HD CRT TV goes all the way up to 1080i which is more then enough to at least support some of the lower resolutions of a PC. Certainly would cover the 640x480 VGA resolution of the Dreamcast.

As mentioned in the OP, I have a preference to the HD CRT 4:3 Sony WEGA series which also has the Trinitron logo. It really does a nice job for HD signals and Standard Definition signals as well. Some prefer a 480i tube for the scan lines, but I find the HD CRT really looks sweet and gives me the versatility for all the video signals. Has all the inputs including RF, Composite, the now obsolete SVideo, Component, DVD/HDMI and is only missing a VGA input. Retro Lightguns unfortunately do not work due to the higher scan rate of the HD tube. An interesting side note is the Retro Lightgun of the Dreamcast does work on a VGA CRT computer monitor!

Best way to determine which TV is bring your Retro Console of choice to the Thrift Store for a test run. Not only to determine the picture quality, but also to see if any defect in th TV itself.

Probably the most rare of all the HD TVs are the 4:3 HD tubes. Most HD TVs including HD CRTs are in widescreen which kills the 4:3 display of retro consoles. I do not like black bands at the sides and prefer utilizing all of the screen estate.

Images of PS1 and PS2 games on my HD 4:3 CRT Sony Wega KV-32HS500.

PS1 Grey Model - Little Big Adventure - SVideo Hookup
The room light is on, you can see it reflected off the glass tube.
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PS2 Fat - Alien Hominid - Component Hookup
Even with the camera flash, the WEGA still displays a bright screen!
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CRT vs LCD - Hardware Mods - HDAdvance - Custom Controllers - Game Storage - Wii Gamecube and other Guides:
CRTGAMER Guides in Board Guides Index: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1109425#p1109425

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