The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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flex wood
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by flex wood Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:40 am

Cronozilla wrote:I don't like the "That's how it's always been" attitude because it's simultaneously excusing the behavior (which is bullshit) and it's also not true.

I remember playing tons of games in the late 90s and early 00s online where this toxicity didn't exist.

From my recollection, it didn't seep in until Counter-Strike rolled around and an entirely new demographic, whom may or may not be incredibly immature, rolled into the past time.

At that point in time, it just wasn't fun anymore.

What kind of games are you specifically talking about pre counter strike? I think the issue is more to do with competitive games then it is with just any online game.
BoringSupreez wrote:Using racist/sexist terms like "white/male privilege" does nothing to further the living conditions of others.

I'm stealing that.
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pierrot
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by pierrot Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:24 am

BoringSupreez wrote:
pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:Enjoyable online gaming is not a right; however, you do have every right to choose not to partake in those activities.

People don't have the right to be treated like human beings on the internet?

If by that you mean people don't have the right to not hear insults and offensive speech when they voluntarily choose to go online and not mute the microphones, then no, they don't have that right. It's not a right, and it shouldn't be considered one.

That's not really the issue at hand. This is about individuals being verbally abused and attacked while playing a game online.

Perhaps a better question: Do you believe people have the right to be treated like human beings in their daily lives? Because the internet is increasingly becoming part of the average person's daily life.



BoringSupreez wrote:Using racist/sexist terms like "white/male privilege" does nothing to further the living conditions of others. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What this sounds like to me: 'I'm offended by the term, therefore, I'm entitled to ignore any empirical evidence that might suggest bias toward men and people of Caucasian descent in things such as funding of school systems and education, voting laws, wage disparity, general upward mobility, or otherwise.'


BoringSupreez wrote:Also I'm not sure what you're trying to say specifically with your last sentence, care to elaborate?

It's only to say that in some cases where one is being given preferential treatment (whether consciously or unconsciously) it can appear as though he's losing something despite another person only being treated fairly.
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Cronozilla
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by Cronozilla Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:00 am

flex wood wrote:What kind of games are you specifically talking about pre counter strike? I think the issue is more to do with competitive games then it is with just any online game.


HLDM and Quake. Even games that came out after CS, like DoD, and ESF. There were much more positive environments. People could play without being horrible, and often times were helpful.

Constructive communities grew out of HLDM, a lot of communities that grew out of CS were laden with plagiarism and volatility.
It even spread into people you talked to face to face. It just seemed to bring an entirely different attitude.

There's always people who troll. But there's a difference between a ribbing in good fun, and just outright being malicious. And I'm not claiming it didn't exist, but it wasn't as prevalent.

I think the depressing thought is that there's a possibility that all that really happened is more people started playing online and the absolutely unpleasant current state is just more reflective of individuals and how they think, rather than a culture of acceptance of crassness that grew from indifference.

Maybe online games have become more reflective of how people actually are ... and maybe that's not something that should be nurtured.
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BoringSupreez
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BoringSupreez Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:15 am

Cronozilla wrote:I think the depressing thought is that there's a possibility that all that really happened is more people started playing online and the absolutely unpleasant current state is just more reflective of individuals and how they think, rather than a culture of acceptance of crassness that grew from indifference.

Maybe online games have become more reflective of how people actually are ... and maybe that's not something that should be nurtured.

That is exactly what it is. People are not innately good, and once they're given the mask of anonymity they feel free to show their true selves. Societal pressures are a huge part of what keeps people in check, and it's why anarchy can never work.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by Erik_Twice Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:43 am

Without moderation, online gaming is a cesspool and there's no moderation without dedicated servers or an unlikely and probably undesirable corporate control. Because if the best course of action is not having any conversations at all, the platform has already failed.

Anyways, there are many reasons why a certain community turns out worse than another. Moderation is one, who are the people who play the game is another. If the community is full of teenagers, the changes of being called a faggot increase exponentially and those who only play Call of Duty are much more likely to get angry because they lost than a dedicated Descent II player.

Concerning competition, I don't think it's so much it as simply the idea that you are a better, stronger person for playing a certain game well which is fairly entrenched in gaming as a whole and is particularly nasty in certain areas. This added to the idea that you are a better, more intelligent person for playing a game and not another "inferior" one for a pretty ugly combo.

Also, anonymity is bollocks, people are more than happy to be complete dicks to each other as long as they don't have to face any consequences and on the internet they won't face them even if their name is out there.


Anecdote time: Like Winds, I often got votebanned from servers, in my case while playing Sniper in Team Fortress 2. Why Sniper and not other classes? Well, most players tend to have a very narrow view of what's possible in a game and in the case of shooters, headshotting people at close range or very fast (quickscoping) is outside of that very narrow idea of what's possible. So everyone thinks "This is impossible, this guy must be cheating!". After all, what's more likely, cheating or someone being significantly better than you? :P
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BogusMeatFactory Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:44 am

BoringSupreez wrote:
MrPopo wrote:There's a difference between "free speech" and "being a jackass".

True... but you can't really take away the right to be a jackass without stepping on the right of free speech. Who's going to be the judge of what's jackassery, and what isn't? Maybe I consider everything that I disagree with to be jackassery.

That's why the Neo Nazis are allowed to parade through towns on occasion; as much as Neo Nazis suck it's their right to believe and say what they want.


During a Neo Nazi parade no one goes up to a jewish person and says they are going to rape and murder their family. Those parades have to be peaceful and civil, even if their beliefs are skewed in my personal opinion.

With games, it should be the same way. People are taking the volatile environment and bringing it to a whole new level and it is wrong. You are not making a division between being a jackass and being malicious and harmful.

You can not tell me that calling the swat team on a player in real life is acceptable. you can not tell me that telling someone that they are going to be raped is acceptable. It is not and should never be.
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SirGawain
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by SirGawain Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:31 am

Online gaming is very toxic, but I think the biggest part of the problem is that people hate having their ego damaged. IF people think they are amazing, they want to stay that way. Case in point, back in college a bunch of us would play Battlefield together, enough to make an entire team, I think between 8 and 12 depending. We weren't spectacular on our own, but we communicated and everyone played their respective role. This led to us dominating the majority of the people we played and them quitting soon after the game was over, but we weren't out to hurt peoples feelings. We were just having fun. It is similar to when the Patriots beat a team by like 50 points a few years back. At that point, it is just running an offense. The coach might want to dial it back, but it is hard to tell a running back to stop when he is in the moment and breaks through the line. He isn't gonna stop. We were just playing and having fun, but we also had a lot of death threats and other garbage.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by turbolegs Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:32 am

I steer clear of online gaming, local multiplayer is where it's at.

I've had a couple of nice parties in PSO, other than that, the only online game i've ever enjoyed is Journey. The hate is just so prevalent in other titles.

I haven't had a chance to look into Mii verse but it looks right up my alley.
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fastbilly1
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by fastbilly1 Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:02 am

BoringSupreez wrote:Problem solved. Maybe more people should get crews together for LAN parties. Enjoyable online gaming is not a right; however, you do have every right to choose not to partake in those activities.


I agree, LAN parties are the way to go. Who wants to start one?
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BoringSupreez
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BoringSupreez Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:48 am

pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:If by that you mean people don't have the right to not hear insults and offensive speech when they voluntarily choose to go online and not mute the microphones, then no, they don't have that right. It's not a right, and it shouldn't be considered one.

That's not really the issue at hand. This is about individuals being verbally abused and attacked while playing a game online.

Perhaps a better question: Do you believe people have the right to be treated like human beings in their daily lives? Because the internet is increasingly becoming part of the average person's daily life.

If they're stupid enough to go play an online game, be confronted with offensive speech or verbal abuse, and then choose to continue listening to it instead of muting the player, no, they don't have that right. You have the tools to not listen to that sort of thing. If you're too stupid to use them, that's on you.

pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:Using racist/sexist terms like "white/male privilege" does nothing to further the living conditions of others. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What this sounds like to me: 'I'm offended by the term, therefore, I'm entitled to ignore any empirical evidence that might suggest bias toward men and people of Caucasian descent in things such as funding of school systems and education, voting laws, wage disparity, general upward mobility, or otherwise.'

What this sounds like to me: "White men have things better than other people, and that makes me mad. They should feel guilty." How about focusing on helping others up to our level instead of focusing on jealousy and guilt? As I said in the quote, using racist terms helps nothing.

Besides, I thought I had the right not to hear offensive things online. Or do you expect me to actually utilize the block feature that's been provided to me?

BogusMeatFactory wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:
MrPopo wrote:There's a difference between "free speech" and "being a jackass".

True... but you can't really take away the right to be a jackass without stepping on the right of free speech. Who's going to be the judge of what's jackassery, and what isn't? Maybe I consider everything that I disagree with to be jackassery.

That's why the Neo Nazis are allowed to parade through towns on occasion; as much as Neo Nazis suck it's their right to believe and say what they want.


During a Neo Nazi parade no one goes up to a jewish person and says they are going to rape and murder their family. Those parades have to be peaceful and civil, even if their beliefs are skewed in my personal opinion.

People scream obscenities and other hateful things, typically the onlookers. There's a reason they always have the police around when they plan a display. Those are not peaceful happy events, even if they're not usually physically violent.

BogusMeatFactory wrote:With games, it should be the same way. People are taking the volatile environment and bringing it to a whole new level and it is wrong. You are not making a division between being a jackass and being malicious and harmful.

You can not tell me that calling the swat team on a player in real life is acceptable. you can not tell me that telling someone that they are going to be raped is acceptable. It is not and should never be.

Calling the SWAT team was an extreme, isolated occurrence. Not exactly something we should be worrying about; you have a higher chance of getting struck by lightening.

As for threats of rape or death, how often does anyone actually follow through on that stuff? You know it's not real, and the attention you give it encourages even more behavior of that type. That's all they want, is to see you get butthurt. You're letting them win right now.

No, that behavior is not good, but as I've said multiple times now you have the ability to block them, and you can bring their behavior up to an admin. I don't know what more you think you need, but you don't.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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