The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BogusMeatFactory Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:25 pm

dsheinem wrote:Insensitivity and misogyny as well as empathy and kindness are of course present across all groups, but almost any/all online abuse I've ever heard that targets people based on their identity singles out individuals who appear to be outside the demographic majorities.


I can back that up almost. Things tend to be a million times worse if you are not, "normal." How sad is that?
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BoringSupreez
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BoringSupreez Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:39 pm

BogusMeatFactory wrote:On the thick skin argument I find that to be incredibly wrong. You should not HAVE to have thick skin to play a video game. You should not avoid a game that you genuinely enjoy because people are extremely abusive sociopaths. We like to always say that it is perfectly acceptable, because "It has always been like that." No it hasn't. It is not the way it has always been and people need to be held accountable for their actions.

Yes, it has always been this way. There was no golden age when people weren't human, ie, ratbastards. It's unfortunate that things are this way but you just have to deal with it. You're not going to change human nature.

If someone says, "I know where you live and I am going to rape your wife," even though I know they have no idea where I live and won't do that, they should be held accountable. If someone is punished for threats of violence and mayhem in real life, why not in the virtual world?

Because you know it's just trash talk, and getting butthurt because someone said mean things to you on Call of Duty in no way constitutes a need for law enforcement.

You have people that call the police on Streamers with bomb threats and terrorist threats, you have people who take that abuse to an extreme that goes beyond the game. That is a product of the, "It was always this way," mindset and it is sick.

Well, it has always been this way. Have you never heard of the death threats sports stars receive when they screw up a game? This is not new, what's new is people thinking they're entitled to a life free of other people saying terrible things.

BogusMeatFactory wrote:Report people. Constantly report people if they behave in a way you find to be abusive. If you are of the thick skin mentality, that's fine, do what you want, but if you are hurt by it, report it. Period.

No, no, no. People are so weak these days. "Oh, I'm so hurt by those mean words. Help me."

I think it's far better to err on the side of being too lax rather than tightening up the laws when it comes to free speech. It's not exactly easy to get that kind of right back once it's lost. Heck, people might get hurt in the process.

BogusMeatFactory wrote:From what I know of the competitive fighting game scene, there isn't a lot of the North American aggression in Japan.

"North American" aggression? Have you never played on UK servers?

BogusMeatFactory wrote:Trash talk is fine. I am ok with people calling me a noob or a hacker and all that stuff is fine. My brother's wife is a big gamer and laughs when people say horrible things. I have witnessed them telling her, "I am gonna get you pregnant and burn you alive to hear your unborn child's screams." and I am leaving some choice words out. That is horrible.

Yes it is. And from what you're saying, it sounds like she knows exactly how to handle that sort of thing. She doesn't need you to be offended for her.

dsheinem wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:
dsheinem wrote:as bad as it can be for everyone, imagine how much worse it becomes if there's any perception you aren't straight, white, and/or male...

Probably feels about the same as it does for straight cis white males who are tired of being demonized as the standard of insensitivity and misogyny.


Insensitivity and misogyny as well as empathy and kindness are of course present across all groups, but almost any/all online abuse I've ever heard that targets people based on their identity singles out individuals who appear to be outside the demographic majorities.

Well, usually. I see transgenders, gays, and straight people who feel the need to be offended for others firing back in a manner just as hostile more and more lately, especially over the past two years or so.
Last edited by BoringSupreez on Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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pierrot
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by pierrot Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:52 pm

BoringSupreez wrote:Well, usually. I see transgenders, gays, and straight people who feel the need to be offended for others firing back in a manner just a hostile more and more lately, especially over the past two years or so.

Yeah, I have no idea what would cause a person to get worked up on behalf of someone else. Jewish people should have just grown thicker skin to deflect bullets, and protect their vital organs from gassing. What a waste of effort.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by ninjainspandex Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:54 pm

i usually just immediately delete any messages I get from people I don't know on XBLA without even reading them.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by MrPopo Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:18 pm

BoringSupreez wrote:
You have people that call the police on Streamers with bomb threats and terrorist threats, you have people who take that abuse to an extreme that goes beyond the game. That is a product of the, "It was always this way," mindset and it is sick.

Well, it has always been this way. Have you never heard of the death threats sports stars receive when they screw up a game? This is not new, what's new is people thinking they're entitled to a life free of other people saying terrible things.

So since it's always been that way, that makes it ok? I suppose you weren't much of a fan of giving women the vote either.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by foxhound1022 Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:34 am

I didn't really get into online gaming until Socom 2, and this was rampant even then.

I just chalked it up to people being "internet tough guys" from the safety of their couches.

IDK why a simple game can turn certain people into such unrelenting dick-holes, but more often than not it seems to really bring out the worst in individuals.
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BoringSupreez
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BoringSupreez Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:07 am

pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:Well, usually. I see transgenders, gays, and straight people who feel the need to be offended for others firing back in a manner just a hostile more and more lately, especially over the past two years or so.

Yeah, I have no idea what would cause a person to get worked up on behalf of someone else. Jewish people should have just grown thicker skin to deflect bullets, and protect their vital organs from gassing. What a waste of effort.

Wow. You're actually comparing the efforts of some loudmouth kid on XBL to the holocaust.

MrPopo wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:
You have people that call the police on Streamers with bomb threats and terrorist threats, you have people who take that abuse to an extreme that goes beyond the game. That is a product of the, "It was always this way," mindset and it is sick.

Well, it has always been this way. Have you never heard of the death threats sports stars receive when they screw up a game? This is not new, what's new is people thinking they're entitled to a life free of other people saying terrible things.

So since it's always been that way, that makes it ok? I suppose you weren't much of a fan of giving women the vote either.

I never said it was ok. It sucks that people act that way. What I'm saying is that the best way to deal with it is to ignore it, or let the people who run the online service take care of any penalties. I have no issue with mods and admins pruning people who act like dicks online, I just don't want to see actual laws popping up to deal with those issues. I think that's very overkill, and that lawmakers have infinitely more important things to take care of than ragers and trash talkers in online games.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by Jmustang1968 Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:40 am

It is all an attempt to get a rise or reaction out of people that has escalated over the years. People get brave behind the mic online, and some unofficiated competition of who can shock and insult each other has developed.

The slurs and such against minorities occur because it is easy tactic to get a reaction from someone on something that is typically sensitive/offensive. The best thing to do is laugh it off or ignore. By freaking out and lashing back out, you just rewarded the offender. There is never any real weight behind these threats. While they sound nasty, and it is unfortunate that it has become this way, it is just all talk and mind games.
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by pierrot Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:00 pm

BoringSupreez wrote:
pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:Well, usually. I see transgenders, gays, and straight people who feel the need to be offended for others firing back in a manner just a hostile more and more lately, especially over the past two years or so.

Yeah, I have no idea what would cause a person to get worked up on behalf of someone else. Jewish people should have just grown thicker skin to deflect bullets, and protect their vital organs from gassing. What a waste of effort.

Wow. You're actually comparing the efforts of some loudmouth kid on XBL to the holocaust.

It's an extreme example to show a more commonly sympathetic reaction. Abuse is abuse. Trauma is traumatic. (Excuse me for stating the obvious.) Many times when people see someone being abused, they react. Whether for better or to the detriment of the situation, it is a natural course for many people. It's a similar feeling to one that leads people into military careers.

Also, I kindly ask that you stop being so obtuse about male/white privilege. Just because there are white men who have problems too, does not mean that we don't still fare (on average) better than our minority and non-male contemporaries.


Jmustang1968 wrote:It is all an attempt to get a rise or reaction out of people that has escalated over the years. People get brave behind the mic online, and some unofficiated competition of who can shock and insult each other has developed.

The slurs and such against minorities occur because it is easy tactic to get a reaction from someone on something that is typically sensitive/offensive. The best thing to do is laugh it off or ignore. By freaking out and lashing back out, you just rewarded the offender. There is never any real weight behind these threats. While they sound nasty, and it is unfortunate that it has become this way, it is just all talk and mind games.

I think that's giving most of the abusive online players too much credit. Not to say that I don't think some people in online games are working from that angle, but I think most of it comes from frustrated people who confuse the real people on the other side as computers, NPCs, computer AI, etc. I personally know similar types of frustration with video games—anyone who's played an SNK fighting game probably does as well—but where that's generally (at least in my case) frustration with my own ability, I feel it's a lack of genuine compassion for humanity in a lot of the people playing games online (and perhaps it's even just momentary) that leads them to lash out at their opponents as if they weren't real people.



Just as an example of the difference in online communities, I remember FFXI being pretty notoriously shitty in terms of the community. Not so much with abusive language and things, but more about the level of competence/aptitude of the average player, and just some general dick moves/drama in Linkshells (read: guilds) but with the modern online FPS and fighting games, with their voice chat features, I've seen some fairly damning, case-study-like montages of the meltdowns and raving, psychotic tantrums from some of the more modern online gaming communities. They're on an entirely different level from the much rarer displays of abuse I'd ever witnessed as a late '90s/early 2000s online gamer. It's probably not healthy; either for the committing parties, or the people on the receiving end of it. Full marks to people who can just shrug it off, but a lot of times people laugh when they're uncomfortable as well. Be aware that what people appear to be feeling isn't always necessarily the way they really feel.
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BoringSupreez
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Re: The toxicity of online gaming.

by BoringSupreez Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:06 pm

pierrot wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:
pierrot wrote:Yeah, I have no idea what would cause a person to get worked up on behalf of someone else. Jewish people should have just grown thicker skin to deflect bullets, and protect their vital organs from gassing. What a waste of effort.

Wow. You're actually comparing the efforts of some loudmouth kid on XBL to the holocaust.

It's an extreme example to show a more commonly sympathetic reaction. Abuse is abuse. Trauma is traumatic. (Excuse me for stating the obvious.) Many times when people see someone being abused, they react. Whether for better or to the detriment of the situation, it is a natural course for many people. It's a similar feeling to one that leads people into military careers.

Well, I think there are three suitable solutions for someone who feels hurt playing online: grow thinker skin, report the offending parties to the admins of the service, or, if the first two don't work for you, turn off the game. Anything beyond that is, in my opinion, over-reacting.

And seriously, if you can't play a videogame without having your feelings genuinely hurt or getting truly offended, you maybe shouldn't be playing games online.

"Doc, it hurts when I do this"
"Don't do that"

Problem solved. Maybe more people should get crews together for LAN parties. Enjoyable online gaming is not a right; however, you do have every right to choose not to partake in those activities.
pierrot wrote:Also, I kindly ask that you stop being so obtuse about male/white privilege. Just because there are white men who have problems too, does not mean that we don't still fare (on average) better than our minority and non-male contemporaries.

Bringing up "white/male privilege" does absolutely no good for the discussion. We should try to bring others up to our level of quality of life, not demonize ourselves for having it better than others.
prfsnl_gmr wrote:There is nothing feigned about it. What I wrote is a display of actual moral superiority.
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