The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by o.pwuaioc Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:13 pm

Exhuminator wrote:
o.pwuaioc wrote:Then again, you all are using the word retro wrong still.

Have some situational awareness. If you take into account what "retro" means in the context of the video gaming lexicon, I'm actually using the lingo just fine.

Bone said he felt the PS2 was not retro based on its conglomeration of key hardware. I explained that the hardware the PS2 had at its time of release was already nothing new. Sure the hardware was beefier than past iterations, but it wasn't exactly cutting edge. Therefore whether or not the PS2 should be considered retro should be judged by its software library, not its hardware makeup. IMO.

I'm fully aware of the terms of this debate. I still disagree with you from 2 years ago. Old and retro are [i]not[i] interchangeable. Especially on the faulty logic that they are because they're subjective. Fun and miserable are subjective, too, but they are most certainly not interchangeable.
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Exhuminator
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by Exhuminator Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:16 pm

Ah yes, now I clearly remember your thoughts from Aug 16, 2013, how silly of me.

o.pwuaioc wrote:Old and retro are [i]not[i] interchangeable. Especially on the faulty logic that they are because they're subjective. Fun and miserable are subjective, too, but they are most certainly not interchangeable.

Old and retro are at least near-synonyms. Fun and miserable are antonyms. Of course they aren't interchangeable.

Seriously man, if we argued about this two years ago and didn't agree then, I don't see it happening now.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by pepharytheworm Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:31 pm

Oh o.pwuaioc, with your pure and true knowledge of all that is retro please teach us the path to retro enlightenment. We wish to not be fools anymore by being on a forum of the retro gaming lifestyle and not know of what we speak.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by BoneSnapDeez Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:48 pm

Exhuminator wrote:The PS2 just used better iterations of that existing tech, in a package that worked well together.


Well this is the crux of the matter. Though the tech you mentioned is technically "old" in some sense, it wasn't utilized by a wide base of consumers until the turn of the millennium. How many people actually went online with their Atari 2600/Gen/SNES?

Exhuminator wrote:The sad fact is, much of the PS2's library doesn't feel retro because game developers by and large haven't evolved their gameplay constructs beyond what they were doing with the PS2. The graphics have gotten more complex, but the gameplay not so much.


Yet another reason I don't find the PS2 to be retro - the design of its games are not dissimilar from those being released today.

And no, I don't find old and retro to be synonymous. Retro implies some sort of cultural and aesthetic context. Old is just old.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by o.pwuaioc Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:53 pm

Exhuminator wrote:Ah yes, now I clearly remember your thoughts from Aug 16, 2013, how silly of me.

o.pwuaioc wrote:Old and retro are [i]not[i] interchangeable. Especially on the faulty logic that they are because they're subjective. Fun and miserable are subjective, too, but they are most certainly not interchangeable.

Old and retro are at least near-synonyms. Fun and miserable are antonyms. Of course they aren't interchangeable.

Seriously man, if we argued about this two years ago and didn't agree then, I don't see it happening now.

If old and retro are synonymous, then how can a modern game be retro? How can brand new pants be retro?
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pepharytheworm
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by pepharytheworm Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:13 pm

pepharytheworm wrote:Oh o.pwuaioc, with your pure and true knowledge of all that is retro please teach us the path to retro enlightenment. We wish to not be fools anymore by being on a forum of the retro gaming lifestyle and not know of what we speak.

o.pwuaioc wrote:Oh, nice, insulting sarcasm. Guess you won that battle! Clearly you are the better and more knowledgeable person here. :roll:

Thought I should put your reply where it belongs, instead of a pm. This is no battle. There are no victors here. And though I was being sarcastic I actual do want you to tell your views.

Why are you bringing up this argument again for what seems little purpose then to antagonize Exhuminator? I would rather you state your opinions on if the PS2 is retro or not then to continually critique Exhuminator's thought process.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by Exhuminator Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:14 pm

o.pwuaioc wrote:If old and retro are synonymous, then how can a modern game be retro? How can brand new pants be retro?

I see the slippery slope your edging me towards, nice try.

Unfortunately there is no concrete definition of what "retro" is going to mean in the context of older video game systems. It's subjective so it's just going to vary person to person. You're right in that "retro" itself was never the proper word to use to describe this instance. But that wasn't my decision, popular opinion created this misnomer. So in that aspect the word "retro" got confiscated and the meaning changed to encapsulate something else in regards to this medium. In that regard (and given that word meanings mutate over time in general) one has to accept the intrinsic nature of popular opinion on this matter.

"Retro" in gaming means a video game system no longer in vogue by the popular masses, but yet still holds a sense of nostalgia in the hearts of certain gamers. Thereby certain genres of gaming that were popular on those outdated systems, say 2D platformers, being made today invoke the nostalgic angle of their authentic predecessors. Hence a legitimately old game can be "retro", and a new game can be "retro-themed" by invoking the same sense of nostalgia.

o.pwuaioc wrote:to continually critique Exhuminator's thought process.

Yeah, that's Dsh's job. But since he's not here, I guess this is gonna have to do.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by pepharytheworm Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:21 pm

BoneSnapDeez wrote:
Exhuminator wrote:The PS2 just used better iterations of that existing tech, in a package that worked well together.


Well this is the crux of the matter. Though the tech you mentioned is technically "old" in some sense, it wasn't utilized by a wide base of consumers until the turn of the millennium. How many people actually went online with their Atari 2600/Gen/SNES?


Just out of curiosity how many PS2 owners played online? I don't think I knew a single person who did other than one who did just for Final Fantasy XI. In a lot of ways I find the the PS2 has more incommon with the PS1 then the PS3. Geez, I miss just putting a game in and playing.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by isiolia Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:32 pm

BoneSnapDeez wrote:And no, I don't find old and retro to be synonymous. Retro implies some sort of cultural and aesthetic context. Old is just old.


I'd say that the PS2 falls under that though. As has been mentioned, functionally, it's more like the consoles that preceded it. You don't fire up a PS2 and make an account or profile on the console, for example. There's no achievement system, and the vast majority of the library has no installs, patches, or even online play. Pretty much, if you want to play something, you'll put a disc in the drive, insert a memory card, and plug in a controller (yes, I know, mods, third party accessories, etc).

That can make for a bit of a gap between the 6th and 7th generation, at least with regard to how the platform itself works. That was the style of the time, and is no longer the popular/dominant model for console functionality. Makes them retro, to me.

Actual software, sure, some game design elements have changed, others haven't. It's much harder to draw a line.
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Re: Do you think the PS2 is retro?

by BoneSnapDeez Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:50 pm

isiolia wrote:There's no achievement system, and the vast majority of the library has no installs, patches, or even online play.


Fair enough. But many of those things are optional (I ignore achievements and have never connected to the internet with any console, with the exception of the Wii) - to me the PS2 still "feels" more like a modern console than a retro one.

One thing I find telling is that many of those here calling the PS2 retro are "young" and mostly stick to 6th/7th/8th gen stuff. With those parameters in place, then I suppose it makes sense. For someone like me, who's 30+ and owns a Fairchild Channel F, nothing about the PS2 seems retro at all.

To take this a step further, do some folks regard, say, Devil May Cry and God of War to be "retro games"??? - that I certainly can't wrap my head around.
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