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Valkyrie-Favor
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Valkyrie-Favor Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:24 pm

(I've had enough misogyny and misandry for one year and it's still July. Everyone can get along).

She needs thousands of dollars to repeat whatever she read on TVTropes, and look up hundreds of games on Google? Why does she need a studio to record the videos? It seems really excessive to me. She doesn't deal with sexism against men, which is just as bad. For every helpless damsel there are ten hulking violent sociopaths men. I mentioned a few days ago how I don't like the male leads in my favorite games.

I take issue with the fact that she can examine sexism in video games, but it would be ridiculous to tackle sexism in all of film, literature, comics, or any other storytelling medium. The problem is the writer on board - the storyteller. Anyone can learn to write well - some are more talented than others, of course - but to really make a difference, make an indie game!

At least the games on her shelf were good. She had BlazBlue :mrgreen:
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Nemoide Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:41 pm

I like her style and support her saying what she feels she has to say. I'm very interested in seeing her videos; I expect them to be pretty thought-provoking. Even if I end up not agreeing with her, I think she's inspiring a valuable conversation.

Suggesting that she should talk about male portrayals in video games is at best a divergence. Yes, there are male video game characters who are not positively portrayed; but there are HUGE numbers of positive, well-developed male protagonists out there. Women are a lot more likely to either be sexpots in chain-mail bikinis or are left as "supporting" characters who might be a love interest for the protagonist. There are some exceptions but the portrayal of women in video games in general is something seriously worthy of social scrutiny.

As for her deserving the money, I'm really glad she's gotten as much support as she has. She seems to have already actively raised the level of discourse we are having at a broad level and will probably further provoke social discourse with the release of her videos. If she can make some kind of living doing that kind of thing, more power to her! The combination of furthering intelligent, progressive thoughts/actions and being able to make a good amount of money is not a very common thing and I'm glad she's making it work!
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Valkyrie-Favor Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:47 am

But what's the support for? What part of this project can't be done with one camera, a laptop and some Google searching? I really don't understand it. All she's promising is YouTube videos of her talking (in Tropese, no less). I'm really surprised at the amount of money involved. It may put off the people she's trying to get her message to. (I'm all for equality and it still puts me off). It's not like she asked for the ridiculous sum that was pledged to her, but asking for a few thousand dollars is a lot in itself. Fan-driven culture might respond better to a free project, right?

I definitely think that the way women are represented in most games is immature, but most games are immature in every area. If we're talking games with well-developed, interesting characters with a writer that cared, I daresay the equality is already there! Most of my favorite games have interesting female characters, Ridge Racer notwithstanding.

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Guess who kicks more butt.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Nemoide Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:13 am

This rant by author Harlan Ellison might be relevant. Just because something can be free doesn't mean roughly comparable should be free. Rush Limbaugh (a man I find abhorrent) could be compared to a podcaster, but Limbaugh rakes in millions every year. She might be able to make the videos for just the cost of a camera, a laptop, some editing software, and a lighting kit. But for a lot of people, buying that equipment is a really big deal! I can certainly understand why someone would want to monetize that.

I'm not sure if I'm even being relevant to the topic anymore. This is about her videos, not the merits of capitalism! :P

Besides, this *IS* a free series; she only collected from backers who basically felt like donating her to support her project. If you didn't want to back (I didn't back it), you can still watch her videos.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Erik_Twice Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:59 am

Nemoide wrote:Yes, there are male video game characters who are not positively portrayed;

Who cares about positive portrayals? Women can also be dicks too and they should! This idea that the only valid woman is a strong, good woman is dehumanzing. It's the same logic that gives us token blacks and forbids them for ever being a villain. Women should be understood as people and people includes the worst part. Cruel, ugly, self-preservationist liars will do more for equality than idealized female characters will ever do.

Sorry but this makes my skin crawl. Were Daffy a women, all his shorts would have been banned thanks to this.

She seems to have already actively raised the level of discourse we are having at a broad level and will probably further provoke social discourse with the release of her videos.

But what has she done to "raise the level of discourse"? Her writting is poor, and her arguments weak and often flawed, rehases of what better, more eloquent writers did elsewhere. She seems hung on the same concepts you can easily find in the web and with a tone that doesn't drive potential discussion away like her's does.

I feel like she has gotten a lot of money and space for just being a feminist instead of a good one.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Nemoide Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:33 am

General_Norris wrote:
Nemoide wrote:Yes, there are male video game characters who are not positively portrayed;

Who cares about positive portrayals? Women can also be dicks too and they should! This idea that the only valid woman is a strong, good woman is dehumanzing. It's the same logic that gives us token blacks and forbids them for ever being a villain. Women should be understood as people and people includes the worst part. Cruel, ugly, self-preservationist liars will do more for equality than idealized female characters will ever do.

Sorry but this makes my skin crawl. Were Daffy a women, all his shorts would have been banned thanks to this.


I don't think all women should be positive portrayals, but there definitely seems to be a large void of positive female characters. Games shouldn't be banned for having sexist portrayals, but IMO it's something worth discussing and seeing if we, as a culture, can do better.
It seems to me like there are TONS of different types of male video game characters, good and bad. However women seem to almost always end up being nothing more than a negative stereotype. Yeah, you might be able to name 5 games with positive, well developed female characters; I think the average person would have trouble with that, which indicates that there's something wrong with how the industry as a whole is crafting their portrayals of women.

I don't think games should be censored or creator's visions should be changed to be made more marketable. But it would be nice to see some more games that aren't filled with negative gender stereotypes a little more often.

But what has she done to "raise the level of discourse"? Her writting is poor, and her arguments weak and often flawed, rehases of what better, more eloquent writers did elsewhere. She seems hung on the same concepts you can easily find in the web and with a tone that doesn't drive potential discussion away like her's does.

I feel like she has gotten a lot of money and space for just being a feminist instead of a good one.


Maybe her arguments are rehashes of other writers, but I'd be hard-pressed to find someone discussing some of her planned trope videos like "Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress" or "Mrs. Male Character" - I expect that her opinions in those will be new to me. After watching her previous "Tropes vs. Women" videos, I saw a number of things I was only vaguely aware of. I don't agree with everything she says about everything, but I see her as raising all kinds of interesting points.
What's important about what she's done is that she has successfully spread her message to the mainstream. It's rare for serious feminist analysis of video games to get widely noticed by the gaming community at large. It's been my experience that Racketboy, with it's regular threads about gender politics, is the exception rather than the rule. Maybe I'm oblivious to something, but I can't think of another example of someone doing what she's doing to similar effect.

I don't want to try to judge her videos that she hasn't made yet, but what she lacks in depth, she makes up for in mainstream-visibility.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by MrPopo Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:32 pm

Valkyrie-Favor wrote:Guess who kicks more butt.

Not sure which is the male and which is the female.
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Menegrothx Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:03 am

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/176 ... n=7bccb8c6
Warlord Gromug is an ork warboss and socio-economic spectator who has an over-inflated sense of self-entitlement. He uses his meagre following to launch ill-fated attacks against Imperium space, as well as providing an important and fresh insight into modern pop culture. His videos are used as educational tools in classrooms and are screened at conferences and film festivals [citation needed]. He claims to speak internationally and lots of other things that appear to have no basis in truth.

:)
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Nemoide Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:22 am

There's also this IndieGoGo campaign which would more accurately be called "Tropes vs Men in Videogames."
I'm really hoping that the people behind that project actually make the video series. I'm very curious what they have to say! (Even though I'm expecting it to be less insightful than Tropes vs Women.)
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Re: Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

by Erik_Twice Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:33 am

Nemoide wrote:I don't think all women should be positive portrayals, but there definitely seems to be a large void of positive female characters.

What I argue is that positive or negative isn't what matters, what matters is that they are humane portrayals, if applicable.

The problem I have with this, is that it promotes a game of numbers, where works aren't understood as individual pieces but as an arithmetic sum where we strive to find an undefined balance that artistically doesn't exist because it changes all the time. It's just misguided, in the same what that saying that "killing is always wrong", it lacks very important nuance and promotes easy lines instead of actual understanding.

Yeah, you might be able to name 5 games with positive, well developed female characters; I think the average person would have trouble with that, which indicates that there's something wrong with how the industry as a whole is crafting their portrayals of women.

Well, to be frank, I don't think the average person can name five interesting characters at all, much less positive and female ones and I really don't think I can either, specially if you consider whimsy or weak characters as negative.

I mean, there are many works, genres and trends that directly oppose strong, positive female characters because they oppose strong and positive characters! I mean, GladOS is probably one of the best characters videogames have and she's a psychotic computer while no character is competent in TF2 at all. We have cyberpunk and gothic horror and dystopian tales and the 90s had an anti-hero craze. Positive characters aren't an artistical solution, why should they be a moral one?


$3,300,000
3.3 Million

Your very own hipster Lumberjack. One or more of the cast will personally fly out to see you, dressed as lumberjacks. Fun (almost) guaranteed to ensue!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

At the end of the day, the pitfalls and problems this project has are similar to the original. Sure, it's an area that is virtually unexplored and the search for truth there is actively discouraged, as the ludicrous amounts of hate demostrate, so it's better than nothing, specially given the highly problematic landscape, but I really dislike the starting points of both programs greatly.

They have however not actively gained my mistrust like Tropes vs Women has and even if it's a quite terrible thing, I hope the constant scrutiny and defensiveness of the general public helps them.


I also laughed pretty hard at the Ork thing. Sorry, Ork-speak is hilarious :lol:
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