Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[dsheinem]

Women may be the largest demographic, but they are rarely the biggest purchasing demographic for any kind of entertainment medium taken as a whole. Those problems are partly due to the lack of women in positions of content creation and management in most kinds of entertainment, but I think it is probably safe to say that there are also larger factors at play (women's being steered away from STEM fields and its related tech from early on, the phallogocentrism that is historically bound up in so many creative and competitive endeavors, women's lack of earning power and discretionary spending relative to men, etc.).

That isn't to disagree with your point JT, but the answers to these problems are beyond the scope of just pushing the industry to create more feminist-friendly or feminine games.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I like where the conversation is going, but one thing on my mind is the fact that the female demographic on the buying side of videogames has been growing. Part of this is going to be the casual market, phone games and the like. But there's a lot of growth in women liking games with "masculine" ideas and basis' without the women ever thinking about how it might be so until it is pointed out. I don't know that many girls who game, but those I do know are often into FPS games, League of Legends, fighting games, or niche titles from Japan (anime based, JRPGs, etc.) I don't know about those women or how they feel about everything, or if they are aware of this whole fiasco that's been going on, but I doubt that they were looking for "feminine" games. They just walked in, looked around, and said, "yeah, I want to kill stuff in this type of game".

Not to say bringing in games with stereotypically feminine tropes is a bad idea, in fact, I would support it. I'm just saying that it isn't necessarily the answer.

[dsheinem]

But there's a lot of growth in women liking games with "masculine" ideas and basis' without the women ever thinking about how it might be so until it is pointed out.

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence to support this?

[Forlorn Drifter]

Do we have to go over this again, really?

No, I don't, but if women get into videogames, they generally play at least some "masculine" games if they get past the mobile games point. Its essentially inevitable.

[dsheinem]

I don't doubt that the phenomenon occurs, just that it is accelerating...

[prfsnl_gmr]

Women may be the largest demographic, but they are rarely the biggest purchasing demographic for any kind of entertainment medium taken as a whole.

I don't think that this is correct. I cannot find the study at the moment, but if I recall correctly, women are more likely than their male partners to choose joint entertainment options (e.g., the movie you watch on a date, the television show you watch in the evening, etc.).

That said, women are typically more open to "masculine" entertainment options. (In other words, a woman is much more likely to choose a stereotypically "masculine" action film with a male lead than a man is to choose a stereotypically "feminine" period drama with a female lead.) Accordingly, a lot of entertainment is targeted to male audiences because both men and women will choose it independently.

More recently, however, studios appear have recognized the role that women play in selecting joint entertainment options, and there appear to be more traditionally "masculine" entertainment options that are nonetheless targeted to women (e.g., action films and ribald comedies with female leads).

[dsheinem]

Women may be the largest demographic, but they are rarely the biggest purchasing demographic for any kind of entertainment medium taken as a whole.

I don't think that this is correct. I cannot find the study at the moment, but if I recall correctly, women are more likely than their male partners to choose joint entertainment options (e.g., the movie you watch on a date, the television show you watch in the evening, etc.).

I don't see how your point invalidates mine about entertainment purchasing power...I know women have more buying power as a whole (http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/buying-power)...but I think tech and entertainment related stuff is generally an exception in terms of who spends. In games specifically, it is almost 4:1 men to women in terms of how much is spent (http://wmc.3cdn.net/51113ed5df3e0d0b79_zzzm6go0b.pdf - - p.33). In music and movies purchased for home, men also lead (here in GB, for example - http://www.statista.com/statistics/2760 ... by-gender/). Here's a similar angle on the issue: http://www.bitrebels.com/lifestyle/comp ... ng-habits/

In purchasing movie tickets, it is closer to 1:1 (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... _mean.html) but this is a more recent phenomenon.

[Erik_Twice]

*There are very few games where birth or child rearing are central to the game.

You know, it think it's unfair to you JT, but it really rubs me the wrong way to paint women doing the same work as men as somehow being worse than "female-oriented features" like romance and child-rearing.

I mean, I get your point and it's not exactly uncommon. Sarkeesian shares it, Extra Credits shares it, Spanish feminists share it...But it is weird to argue for new and improved gender roles to replace the old ones instead of, you know, the removal of them

Of course, the idea behind it is : even if Tetris or Umihara Kawase or Battle Garegga are neutral, they are not good enough because they don't appeal to women enough.

And I agree with that. But only on very down-to-earth, politically realist terms not as an ideal. Not sure if that makes sense to you guys

In fact, the data suggests that there are just as many female gamers as there are male gamers (if not more).

Well, they are, but only if you set a very low bar, like saying most people are readers because they ocasionally pick up the latest bestseller. I mean, it's technically true but doesn't have a lot of significance, I think.

Most people who are into games as a hobby are male. I think we can all agree on that.

But there's a lot of growth in women liking games with "masculine" ideas and basis' without the women ever thinking about how it might be so until it is pointed out.

Do you have more than anecdotal evidence to support this?

I don't think such evidence exists, but anecdotically it is what it is: Most of my female friends play most the same stuff the average dude does: Uncharted, Dragon Age, Skyrim, LoL...There are differences in tastes between genders but I think the whole debate about nonviolence and gender appeal misses a lot of nuance, like how women like horror games a lot.

[J T]

*There are very few games where birth or child rearing are central to the game.

You know, it think it's unfair to you JT, but it really rubs me the wrong way to paint women doing the same work as men as somehow being worse than "female-oriented features" like romance and child-rearing.

I think you're being rubbed the wrong way by a false dichotomy, rather than anything I actually believe in. I may not have been fully clear, so let me further elaborate my intent. I'm highlighting the lack of games with female-oriented features because it is a gap in the general diversity of video games. I wouldn't want to say that there is any one single feminist-style game that needs to be developed, but rather there is opportunity for greater diversity in gaming across-the-board that would include opportunities for females not currently provided within the existing spectrum of games. I would agree with you that there are multiple feminist ideals, but I'm not saying just pick one, nor even trying to unify them all; I'd rather say pick them all and let the market run its course from there.

I think that over time, by supporting more gender-diverse and culturally-diverse games, we will naturally see gaming as-a-whole develop in new and interesting directions not presently explored. I think it is worth supporting the feminist movement in the gaming industry not only for the ethical reason of wanting to be more inclusive of women, but also for selfish reasons of wanting to see new kinds of games that the boys club doesn't seem to come up with. I would love to play through a good romantic comedy too, or raise a digital baby. I would also love to play as a female soldier or axe-lord. I just like having the choice, and those choices don't tend to show up very often without more global support for diversity.

[J T]

That isn't to disagree with your point JT, but the answers to these problems are beyond the scope of just pushing the industry to create more feminist-friendly or feminine games.

Totally agree with you.