The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by BogusMeatFactory Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:54 pm

I would like to point out the One Video Game Roger Ebert Loved.

I think that he had a preconceived notion of what games are. Some games are not art, clearly. Someone mentioned the rules and mechanics of a game limiting the artistic expression of a game. That there are imposed limitations on what can be done that remove the artistic nature of a game.

Someone mentioned that the concept could be applied to movies, but I think that dance or music can be a better comparison. With music, you can honestly blurt out any sound you like, but there are rules as to what can be done to make a song sound nice. We impose limitations such as keys and time signatures to add the structure necessary to make it Art.

I feel like gaming has changed dramatically since Ebert put out his call against gaming as art and we have seen numerous titles evoke emotion, leave room for expression and allow players to experience things in their own way. We leave things up to interpretation constantly. A man can look at a work of art and say, "This is not art," and another could say, "This is art."

For Ebert, games can't be art. That is fine. For me, they can and I am happy with that. It is what it is.



Also, if you want an example of Game Rules as art, play Graffiti Kingdom where the rules are, "You draw monsters and based on what brushes, color and shape you make it determines their stats and abilities." I made a strange, thin dark looking beast with a tail and thin runes etched along its body. I also made a penis with scrotal legs and feet and it shot out yellow lightning blasts and lightning sprays. Hilarious.
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Exhuminator
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by Exhuminator Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:59 pm

BogusMeatFactory wrote:I think that he had a preconceived notion of what games are. Some games are not art, clearly.

Just as some movies are not art, clearly. Or at least they weren't meant to be outwardly. Or were they? Then you get into the existential "anything is art" debate and down the rabbit hole we go.
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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by BogusMeatFactory Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:12 pm

Exhuminator wrote:
BogusMeatFactory wrote:I think that he had a preconceived notion of what games are. Some games are not art, clearly.

Just as some movies are not art, clearly. Or at least they weren't meant to be outwardly. Or were they? Then you get into the existential "anything is art" debate and down the rabbit hole we go.


Exactly, which is why I find it fruitless to have the argument. Some people find art in games, some do not. What do people hope to achieve by stressing that it isn't? It is a battle of semantics and personal opinion.
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J T
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by J T Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:50 pm

Erik_Twice wrote:Ebert simply thought that artistic intent and interactivity are incompatible.


This is another interesting point. Players can screw up the intended storylines of their videogames by running around and breaking all kinds of social rules, or even tell their own story through gameplay that wasn't written into the game script. But then, that's the beauty of video games and I'd rather change the definition of art than to not allow these kind of things to happen in games.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by Erik_Twice Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:36 am

BogusMeatFactory wrote:I think that he had a preconceived notion of what games are.

He often compared Michael Bay-like movies, the kind that only have special effects, poorly acted shoot-outs and explosions to video games. That's what he thought games were. But I think the man really held a grudge against games, it was not just misinformation.

BogusMeatFactory wrote:Exactly, which is why I find it fruitless to have the argument. Some people find art in games, some do not. What do people hope to achieve by stressing that it isn't? It is a battle of semantics and personal opinion.

Basically, "art" is considered to be superior and more important than things that aren't considered "art". That's the entire reason Ebert could get away with hypothethical game burnings, in his mind, they aren't "art" so it's fine to destroy them.

It's an extremely elitist world view, and the idea that only "good" things can be art only makes it worse and opens the floodgates of bannings, artistical limitations and censorship. Every time a book, a movie or a game has been banned, someone characterized it as value-less and obscene.

J T wrote:This is another interesting point. Players can screw up the intended storylines of their videogames by running around and breaking all kinds of social rules, or even tell their own story through gameplay that wasn't written into the game script.

I think many game scripts aren't really an integral part of their games. They exist in the same package, but they really don't interact much so they can easily end up contradicting each other.
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by Ivo Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:41 am

I was reading some other thread and just felt like adding a few hort thoughts on this topic, found this thread which I think I missed back in January and it is a great place to add my thoughts.

I think the rules of games should be considered Art.

A simple, elegant example that came to my mind and prompted me to post was thinking about Tetris (even if you strip it of the music - the visual representation is intrinsic to the game so I can't take it out). I think that is a particularly timeless example which I think will easily remain relevant for longer than most (if not all) classic movies.
To my mind, Tetris the game (and by this I have to mean its "rules") is beautiful
(not that I am saying that I think all Art needs to be beautiful).
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by Alakhami Mon May 28, 2018 2:56 am

Ebert just hasn't read Huizenga or Witgenstein. Otherwise he wouldn't spew such nonsense.
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PresidentLeever
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by PresidentLeever Mon May 28, 2018 6:44 am

Obviously there are rules and interaction with other mediums - For example you're not supposed to touch or watch a song, or listen to two different ones at the same time, and we all know people can have wildly different interpretations of songs where the interpretation is the interaction that creates the art in the first place.

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Game Rules as Art

by jaiply Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:22 pm

I just played this game when i was grade 6,if we love the person at our right, say kiss, and if we dont like, say kick.

Now heres the rules:

If you like the person above you or the last person who post,
say KISS and the reason why

If you dislike the person above you,
say KICK and the reason why

enjoy,
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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Game Rules as Art

by BogusMeatFactory Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:51 pm

Kiss because you are clearly the most influential and helpful member in the community. Your continued dedication to the discussion of retro games and contributing to the topics on hand has made me deeply attracted to you to the point of me wanting to kiss you over and over and over again.
Ack wrote:I don't know, chief, the haunting feeling of lust I feel whenever I look at your avatar makes me think it's real.

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