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Anayo
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by Anayo Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:23 pm

isiolia wrote:I think it'd be quite preferable to not have things come to that though, since it can result in long-lived laws that make no sense.


omg, I was going to bring up the New York pinball ban that lasted until the 80's, too. But you beat me to it.
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Erik_Twice
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by Erik_Twice Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:12 am

Anayo wrote:Isn't gambling when you play a game of chance in order to win money?

Gambling is defined as wagering on an uncertain outcome for money or goods. Skins and the like are goods and you are indeed wagering on a certain outcome so it's gambling. Lootboxes are identical to other activities that are already considered gambling.

Anayo wrote:By that logic they should outlaw physical booster packs for collectible trading card games.

I'm more than willing to call that gambling. There's not much of a difference between those booster packs and a scratch lotto ticket.

You even have people that buy them, cash them in to buy more and repeat until they go broke, just like people do with lotto tickets.
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marurun
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by marurun Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:26 pm

The reason those kinds of things are often exempted from gambling laws is that you always get something. You might get something of very little value, but the argument is that it's not like "traditional" gambling where you can put in money and get a return of nothing. But I think there's a middle ground, really, that relates to whether that something you get by default has any real value at all.
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Anayo
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by Anayo Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:33 pm

Erik_Twice wrote:
Anayo wrote:Isn't gambling when you play a game of chance in order to win money?

Gambling is defined as wagering on an uncertain outcome for money or goods. Skins and the like are goods and you are indeed wagering on a certain outcome so it's gambling. Lootboxes are identical to other activities that are already considered gambling.

Anayo wrote:By that logic they should outlaw physical booster packs for collectible trading card games.

I'm more than willing to call that gambling. There's not much of a difference between those booster packs and a scratch lotto ticket.

You even have people that buy them, cash them in to buy more and repeat until they go broke, just like people do with lotto tickets.


How about corporate sweepstakes? Growing up I remember a Danimals yogurt one where you could win lego, or a lunchables one where you could win a Nintendo 64. As I recall, the way they get around the "gambling" stigma for those is that you can send the company a self-addressed envelope and they'll reply with a game piece for free. That way it you're under no obligation to pay for a shot at winning, hence the government doesn't consider it gambling.

Would lootcrates still be gambling if they did that? For example, if you could crack open one free lootcrate a day without paying anything, but if you were impatient you could also buy more.
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by dunpeal2064 Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:42 am

Anayo wrote:Would lootcrates still be gambling if they did that? For example, if you could crack open one free lootcrate a day without paying anything, but if you were impatient you could also buy more.


That is generally what lootcrates already do. I would hazard a guess that this has the potential to be even more destructive for young or potentially abusable users. One free hit, but they'll come back once they get the rush! :twisted:

On the Trading Card Game thing, as someone who has played them their entire lives... this is pure gambling. Its not even nuanced. I knew when I was 7 that I was gambling, and almost got thrown out of the store for saying as much! :lol: I hand you $4, you hand me a random pack of cardboard, with say a 70% chance of loss of value, a 20% chance to break even, and a 10% chance to make money (Sometimes a lot of money! But sometimes the packs are a lot of money too!).

Example: A pack of Futuresight (From the card game Magic: The Gathering) costs around $25-$30. There is a foil card in there worth around $800. Your chances of getting it are extremely low (approx 1/2,160). That is gambling!

The difference between this and lootcrates is the physical cash value. But, I think the point of concern is that its not the cash value that can create a destructive environment for young or sensitive people, its the gambling aspect itself.

The reason Danon and the like get away with sweepstakes, is they generally have no cost to entry. Or, more specifically, they offer the sweepstakes free, on top of the yogurt, which you purchased. This does have some potential for abuse, but I don't think its in the same realm. A lot of these now actually require no purchase at all, and are just being advertised on the product, but can be entered online for free.
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Re: Star Wars Battlefront II - Loot crates online gambling?

by CRTGAMER Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:10 am

dunpeal2064 wrote:
Anayo wrote:How about corporate sweepstakes? Growing up I remember a Danimals yogurt one where you could win lego, or a lunchables one where you could win a Nintendo 64.

Would lootcrates still be gambling if they did that? For example, if you could crack open one free lootcrate a day without paying anything, but if you were impatient you could also buy more.
That is generally what lootcrates already do. I would hazard a guess that this has the potential to be even more destructive for young or potentially abusable users. One free hit, but they'll come back once they get the rush!

On the Trading Card Game thing, as someone who has played them their entire lives... this is pure gambling.

Some good points. The Trading Card reminds be of the Baseball cards that came with a dry crumble stick of bubble gum. No one bought the pack for the snack, but the chance of which card inside. The Dannon, could be a form of Loot Crate by the enticement of buying more yogurt to get the prizes? The same could apply to Cracker Jacks, Cereal or any other product that includes a random prize to try again to get the complete set. For a while cereal companies removed the toy prize due to chocking hazard poured into bowl. I do miss the cool prizes from the old cracker jacks boxes.

What of the gumball vending machine dispensers at the store where you insert a coin to dial out a random prize? Big in Japan and used to be everywhere in the states. Does not seem to be as common any more. Searching Wiki, some crazy vending machines including a real car and on the spot cooked french frys.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vending_machine

Social-networked vending machine

With the rise of the social networks, vending machine has been integrated to social media in order to proliferate the interaction of the vending machine with the users from the physical machine to the social networks. The common application of social-networked vending machine is that the user can connect his/her social account to a specific social media designated by the vending machine, the user will be getting some rewards in return, normally in the form of free gift dispensed from the vending machine.

Gamecube F Zero memory card or the magnetic F Zero card to Arcade Cabinet, the card tease to keep inserting coins for cabinet club access and to unlock tracks on the console? Though the gambling aspect not connected back then, the players club card common in Casinos today offering free rooms and discounts on meals depending on the "deposit" level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-Zero_GX#Arcade_counterpart

F-Zero AX cabinets can dispense magnetic stripe cards called a "F-Zero license card" to keep track of custom machine data, pilot points, and race data. A card was bundled with the Japanese release of F-Zero GX. Nintendo GameCube memory cards, on which saved games are kept, can be inserted into these arcade units. A memory card is required for players a chance to win the AX-exclusive pilots, their vehicles, and tracks for use in GX. It was discovered in early 2013 that the arcade version is playable within the GameCube version by the use of a cheat cartridge.

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Different approaches in marketing that could or could not be gambling, just where should be the limit?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/11/17/how-the-star-wars-battlefront-2-loot-crate-disaster-got-this-bad

We first got wind of a Star Wars Battlefront sequel in a way that seems fitting in hindsight: it came during an investor call in May 2016, as EA was discussing its financial outlook. Money — specifically, microtransactions — would play a key role in the Battlefront 2 disaster to come. Our first close look at the game came during Star Wars Celebration in April 2017. Judging by the comments on our coverage at the time, most readers were optimistic, especially after EA promised the game would have no season pass. Once the Battlefront 2 beta went live in October, it became blindingly obvious that the loot crate system had strong pay-to-win elements. In an opinion piece, we wrote:

"So if I spend $200 on crates, open or craft all the best cards I can, then face an equally skilled opponent at the same level as me who didn’t spend money, I will likely win because I have better tools available. That’s indisputable, which means Battlefront 2 at least has pay-to-win elements. Frankly, that sucks, and would potentially be the kiss of death for any competitive shooter that wasn’t wielding the Star Wars license."

Turns out even the Star Wars license wasn’t enough to protect Battlefront 2 from the ire of disgruntled fans. Once the pay-to-win system came to light, player outrage grew so loud EA had no choice but to respond. Hours before Star Wars Battlefront 2 went into wide release, EA took the game’s micro transactions offline entirely. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game.

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