Killing GOATs

[marurun]

There's no challenge curve issue in Symphony of the Night. You never need to grind for any reason. Success comes down to using the right weapons, equipment, and spells.

Except some of those right weapons and equipment are random drops, meaning you have to grind for them. Or they're hidden or secret or revealed later, meaning you have to either already know about them which means you're using an FAQ or replaying. A replay is always going to be a different experience. And I do find that even though I've replayed the game ad-infinitum that the challenge curve is wonky. I can play with my eyes closed but I still have to grind a little unless I want to get annoyed (and even then it doesn't help with some of the obstacles in the inverted castle).

Everything works and nothing is frustrating.

Given some of the games you've complained about on here and the specific complaints you've had, I find this statement to be very bizarre.

The only legit criticism I've ever heard is the voice acting

Most of marurun's comments just sound like nitpicking. Alucard walking too slow? Seriously? He then mentions some tricky jumps in the second castle as an issue. Well, it's a platform game, it SHOULD have some tricky jumps. When you have to resort to nitpicking to criticize a game (as I myself did in this post) that just PROVES that a game is a GOAT. It's hard to criticize legit classics without just finding small, inconsequential things to complain about.

I never said the jumps were tricky as in hard. They simply take too much time to navigate and mess with the flow of the game. The inverted castle feels VERY stop and start in terms of movement. There's no flow to it. The inverted castle doesn't feel so much designed as it does hacked-on, very much unlike the regular castle.

SotN is a fantastic game that I have a lot of fond memories of and enjoy playing greatly. I consider the game a masterpiece of it's time, but I'm still not 100% convinced it holds up today against more modern games of the same type. I'm more likely to pick up SotN because despite a bit of jank in places I have nostalgia for it and it offers so many systems to interact with (even as many of those systems are completely unnecessary: I almost never use the transformations except for shits and giggles or to get past one of the rare barriers which requires them). But many later games of a similar type have much tighter experiences with more solid level design and better integrated mechanics. SotN revived a game type which was common on the NES but had fallen out of favor in the 16- and 32-bit era and that revival has had long legs. It is absolutely historically important. But would a new player enjoy it as much as the more tightly-crafted games it inspired? I'm not a new player, so I can't say, but I suspect someone coming to the game for the first time these days might not like it as much as I do and have a very different experience of it. And when you name a game a GOAT, you have to account for new players that weren't there then.

[marurun]

Final Fantasy VI - I loved this game when I was a teenager. The spritework. The soundtrack. The mid-game event. The open-world. Loved it. Looking back, though, I realize that the base gameplay is only OK. The game is way too easy, and some characters are just way, way better than others. Accordingly, there’s little incentive to use many members of your party (until, perhaps, you need them for the final battle). The combat ends up being pretty dull, since attacking will win most battles. Thankfully, the game is pretty short; so, it never wears out its welcome entirely. Having played through many more RPGs since I first beat Final Fantasy VI, the game’s shortcomings are much more apparent, even when you compare it to previous games in the series. (Mechanically, Final Fantasy V is so much better.)

My complaints about FFVI are oddly personal and I've learned quite well by now that NOBODY agrees with me. I have lots of tonal issues with the game, like how it tries to be both deadly serious and melodramatic but also lowbrow trash gags at the same time. I understand that seriousness needs humor to balance it out, but the swing is just too drastic for me. Also, I have LOTS of issues with the enemies in this (and many other) FF games. Many of the enemies I am fighting feel not so much fantastical as ridiculous or nonsensical (I will always WTF at the greasemonk). You have the additional problem of the main characters still being these tiny little chibi sprites in battle but the other human characters you fight are these massive and detailed graphics. For some reason massively detailed monsters don't bother me, but having a little chibi enemy on the map become a giant detailed sword-man in battle while you are stuck in chibi mode has always stuck in my craw a bit (this complaint also applies to the other 16-bit FF games as well). Further, the fact that the espers can give any character any spell feels... I dunno, bad? Like, you can give everyone the various status-fixing spells (stuff that's not dependent upon how powerful your magic is). Despite stats really adjusting how many of the spells actually land, it feels on its face a bit like every character can be made kind of samey. FFIII US is also where US players were introduced to way too fucking many status effects. FFII US was simplified in that way, which I very much preferred. The FF series's obsession with a billion status effects always drives me a bit bonkers. And I do agree with the whole "Have like 16 different characters to choose from, but BTW, at least half of them kind of suck." I'm still not 100% sure why I bounced off this game so hard, and I'm sure some of my complaints are misplaced in terms of how much those things actually affected my enjoyment of the game vs being scapegoat explanations for issues I can't otherwise pinpoint.

Super Mario Bros. 3 - This game does so much, so well, but it has held up only OK. The stages are too short, but the game is really too long for a single sitting. (Remember! The original had neither a password or save system.) Accordingly, you had to know the location of the warp whistle to really get through it. (Thanks, Nintendo Power!) Once you had two of those, you could warp to the end, skipping a lot of the game’s best, most creative content. This meant that most people spent a lot of time in the boring first two worlds getting warp whistles, or learning how to push through the eighth world, mostly skipping all the awesome content in the fourth, fifth, and sixth world. (Does anyone remember the seventh world?) The addition of a save feature to later releases helps a little, but the game wasn’t really designed for that either. (Since you naturally load up on extra lives and power ups, the end becomes too easy.). Finally, some of the game’s best secrets are too well-hidden, and the game offers no clues regarding how to find them. Super Mario World is better in every way (almost…the spin jump is worthless, and the cape isn’t as good as the tanuki tail).

I completely agree that SMB3 holds up, but I actually like it better than Super Mario World by a wide margin. I do agree with the save issues, and that's why I think the All Stars version on SNES is actually the best way to play. I super love the shorter levels. I feel it really distills the theme or gimmick of the specific level down to its essence. SMB3 is a game that, for the most part, does not feel like it is wasting my time. I think SMW is also a classic that holds up, but sometimes the levels can drag on a little and the various powerups and abilities feel more inconsistent to me (cape and spin jump, yes). SMB3 just feels like a more tightly crafted experience which has no excess to trim.

[prfsnl_gmr]

Those are some very interesting, but nonetheless, somehow, mind-bogglingly completely valid criticisms of Final Fantasy VI.

[marurun]

Those are some very interesting, but nonetheless, somehow, mind-bogglingly completely valid criticisms of Final Fantasy VI.

I cannot tell you how long I have struggled with "Why don't people seem to dislike FFVI for the exact same reasons I have issues with it?" Like, I totally understand differences of opinion, but this one boggles me, and it also boggles me that this mismatch boggles me. I'm boggled over being boggled.

[MrPopo]

The only thing missing from the "things that bother Maru" menu is a music track with SNES guitars. I'll admit to not knowing why the enemy was called Greasemonk until I learned more about localization and realized he was Grease Monkey, which also caused me to parse his sprite better (he's wearing that old timey pilots leather cap and that's why he throws wrenches).

[marurun]

The only thing missing from the "things that bother Maru" menu is a music track with SNES guitars. I'll admit to not knowing why the enemy was called Greasemonk until I learned more about localization and realized he was Grease Monkey, which also caused me to parse his sprite better (he's wearing that old timey pilots leather cap and that's why he throws wrenches).

OK, but how does roving gangs of mutated, aggressive mechanics roaming the plains make sense?

[MrPopo]

The only thing missing from the "things that bother Maru" menu is a music track with SNES guitars. I'll admit to not knowing why the enemy was called Greasemonk until I learned more about localization and realized he was Grease Monkey, which also caused me to parse his sprite better (he's wearing that old timey pilots leather cap and that's why he throws wrenches).

OK, but how does roving gangs of mutated, aggressive mechanics roaming the plans make sense?

<glances at the Mad Max franchise>

[BoneSnapDeez]

My biggest issue with FFVI is that the characters' special abilities are largely wasted by allowing everyone the ability to use magic. End-game everyone can have Ultima which just feels cheap and lazy. Woulda been cool if only the true "mages" were given the ability to wield magic and everyone else had more tools, dances, etc....

It is my favorite game though.

[prfsnl_gmr]

My biggest issue with FFVI is that the characters' special abilities are largely wasted by allowing everyone the ability to use magic. End-game everyone can have Ultima which just feels cheap and lazy. Woulda been cool if only the true "mages" were given the ability to wield magic and everyone else had more tools, dances, etc....

It is my favorite game though.

Agree 100%

Another GOAT must die…anyone willing to take a shot at Doom?

[marurun]

Another GOAT must die…anyone willing to take a shot at Doom?

I... actually think Doom holds up pretty darn well. The graphics aren't awesome 3D, but they're more than adequate to create the setting. The audio is sufficient. The action is fast and frenzied and stable in framerate in modern play environments.