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Raging Justice
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Raging Justice Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:43 pm

Reprise wrote:
marurun wrote:
Reprise wrote:That said, there are a few aspects that I find frustrating.

1. Extended tutorial sections

2. Increasingly complex games

3. Unnecessary and annoying talking, story exposition, characters explaining stuff in an obnoxious way.


I have some thoughts on these as well.
1. This arose as a response to the problem of players leaping into games and being confused because they don’t bother to read manuals. There is a very high chance of losing a player if they are confused or frustrated in a game world, so this is an attempt to acclimate players in a way they can’t route around easily. Better developers do this in less disruptive ways. Poor developers do not.
2. Complexity in games is not a new thing at all. Some early PC games were often needlessly complex (sometimes for all the wrong reasons). If you are talking about shoe-horning systems into games that don’t “need” then, that’s not an issue of complexity but rather a mismatch of game styles and expectations.
3. Game developers have wanted to do that forever, but only could when storage got cheaper. You see early signs of it in some SNES and it takes off in PS1-era and GBA games. Basically, it was inevitable.


You make some good comments, but I don't think I articulated my as well as I could.

1. And I do understand this. It makes perfect sense and it's a natural progression that games have made. Not every person is the kind of person who can learn and pick things up by reading a dry instruction manual, plenty of people are visual learners who learn best through doing and by being shown things. In a way it has made games more accessible.

What I am talking about though, is probably more bad design, but I have also played plenty of amazing games with phenomenal gameplay that still have drawn out or boring tutorial sections. I don't know how to explain it, but I don't really like tutorial sections that don't feel organically interwoven into the game. I dislike it when they have tried to make it feel like it is woven into the game, but it's really obvious you are playing an extended tutorial section. I feel like good games gradually introduce you to the mechanics and it all connects seamlessly, whilst the annoying "tutorial sections" I mean are very much part of the game, but it's obvious you are playing a tutorial and the cut between it and the wider game is more jarring.

I also hate really obnoxious tutorial sections, for example: you move your character for three seconds, game pauses *press X to jump", move your character for two seconds, game abruptly pauses again "use the right stick to move the camera" etc. I dislike ones where it cynically puts you into a battle scenario and you take no damage and it holds your hand through each move with abrupt pauses and button commands.

2. I know this. I grew up with PC gaming. That's not entirely what I am talking about. I am talking about how more complex nearly every game and genre is nowadays. Perhaps my complaint again is more about bad design. That said, I am coming from this angle from someone whose brother has autism and special educational needs and disabilities is the area I have worked in most of my adult life. I feel like the barrier to entry for some is now higher than it was. I can think of a couple of examples.

The first example is cumbersome or multiple menus. Back "in the day" most games had one menu. You pressed "start" and it brought up everything you needed. Now a lot of games have 2 and sometimes even 3 different menus and it can get really confusing. Look at the new Pokemon game. If you want to access your inventory, the save function, look at your Pokemon and a few other things, you need to press the 'UP' button on the d-pad. Now if you want to access your pokedex to properly view your Pokemon and the research tasks you need to complete in order to complete your pokedex, then you need to press the 'DOWN' button your d-pad. Now if you want to view your map, main quests and side quests though, you need to press the "-" button. That's three menus to remember to use when it could have all been amalgamated into one menu. And whilst that example may be "bad design", it really is incredibly common to have multiple different menus for different functions and I just think it's a bit confusing and annoying at times.

The other example is how many different buttons and gameplay functions games have. Look at Sonic games. I understand that the transition to 3D means more design inevitably gets more complex and Sonic is perhaps an extreme example, since the games are often derided for their "poor" 3D games (hey, I actually like most of them, but different strokes for different folks I guess), but anyways, I digress. In the original Sonic games, all you needed to know to play is the direction buttons and one button that was used to jump and to form a spin dash. Since then, you have a homing a attack to use, you can use a 'light speed dash' to zip along multiple rings in a row (a functionality that is needed to progress in some games), there's a function to do a bounce jump thing in some games I think, there's a boost button in some games, there's the wisp powers to use, in one of the games there's a homing kick attack and a normal homing attack and you use different versions to defeat different enemies. It can all be a little overwhelming.

Even Mario Odyssey, an absolutely fantastic game, has an insane number of 'moves' to remember. I returned to that game late last year and found it completely overwhelming coming back to it and trying to learn all the moves you use to navigate the levels.

3. Sure, I guess. But it's still annoying. As someone else said, having forced walking sections where you talk to characters or having characters telling you the entire plot, because the think the audience can't keep up is just bad writing. If the story captivates me and it's the kind of game where the story is a central part of the game, then great, but if it's a 2D platformer or, I don't know, a run n gunner or something (I don't know), maybe don't make me go through pages and pages of text or talking. I'm not playing a visual novel.


There seems to be an obnoxious obsession with the majority of game developers these days in making every game a narrative experience, even on the indie scene. Arietta of Spirits is a game with way too much talking. Meanwhile, the actual gameplay is fairly bland. It's clear which part of the game got the most attention. To be fair, it tells a decent and interesting enough story, but it's not the reason that I chose to play the game. I chose to play it because I wanted to play a video game, not a "narrative experience"

I think game developers are forgetting what makes games unique in the first place. It's like they are all trying to create a Netflix series or a movie instead of an actual video game.

We need more games like Astro Bot: Rescue Mission or Blazing Chrome where you start up the game and you just get actual GAMEPLAY. Astro Bot sets up its story in like the first five minutes of the game, and that's it. No more story for the rest of the game. Instead you get one of the most fun gameplay experiences I've ever had, because THAT is where the dev team's entire focus was.
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Limewater Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:51 pm

Raging Justice wrote:I think it's unfortunate that too difficult is a taboo thing to say these days. The gaming culture has shifted in a way that no longer allows criticism of a game's difficulty. I guess maybe that's due to the success of Souls games. You'll be told to "git gud" or "stop whining". I firmly believe that video games should be challenging, but I also think it's possible to go too far in that direction. Unfortunately, nowadays a game can be as frustratingly hard as possible and will largely just get praised for it.

Like you said though, there are other games to play if one is too hard. I'm thankful for that, but as someone who has always enjoyed melee oriented games I don't like the direction most of them have gone in recent years with every single one having some variation of "perfect dodge" or "perfect parry". Now just to be clear, I don't so much mind the existence of these systems, just the fact that they are not an optional approach to combat. They are the focal point. You HAVE to master them or you will not make progress. THAT is what annoys me. Rather than have interesting games that allow for different approaches to combat for different types of players, now it's perfect parries/dodges or nothing. Sekiro is a perfect example of this. Either you can do it or you can't, and developers really don't care if you can't.


I don't understand the idea that difficulty is a problem with modern games that was not present in "classic" games. "Nintendo hard" is a term for a reason. Lots of classic games were really, really hard.

I also don't understand the idea of a game lacking optional play styles being a "modern" problem. Again, most "classic" or "retro" games have pretty much one, maybe two ways to play. Classic games tend to have relatively few mechanics, and those mechanics are very rarely optional. For example, there's really only one correct way to play Punch Out well. The game has one mechanic and that's the whole game. It's only a question of whether you can master that one mechanic.

Surely you wouldn't look at Super Mario Bros. and say, "I'd like the game, but I really don't like jumping. They should have made that optional."
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Raging Justice
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Raging Justice Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:07 pm

Limewater wrote:
Raging Justice wrote:I think it's unfortunate that too difficult is a taboo thing to say these days. The gaming culture has shifted in a way that no longer allows criticism of a game's difficulty. I guess maybe that's due to the success of Souls games. You'll be told to "git gud" or "stop whining". I firmly believe that video games should be challenging, but I also think it's possible to go too far in that direction. Unfortunately, nowadays a game can be as frustratingly hard as possible and will largely just get praised for it.

Like you said though, there are other games to play if one is too hard. I'm thankful for that, but as someone who has always enjoyed melee oriented games I don't like the direction most of them have gone in recent years with every single one having some variation of "perfect dodge" or "perfect parry". Now just to be clear, I don't so much mind the existence of these systems, just the fact that they are not an optional approach to combat. They are the focal point. You HAVE to master them or you will not make progress. THAT is what annoys me. Rather than have interesting games that allow for different approaches to combat for different types of players, now it's perfect parries/dodges or nothing. Sekiro is a perfect example of this. Either you can do it or you can't, and developers really don't care if you can't.


I don't understand the idea that difficulty is a problem with modern games that was not present in "classic" games. "Nintendo hard" is a term for a reason. Lots of classic games were really, really hard.



This is a common argument and I don't agree with it. I have played many of the "Nintendo hard" games and I have played many modern games, particularly from the indie scene, that are significantly harder. They claim to be staying true to the classic games, but in actuality go far beyond them in terms of difficulty. If you watch the Let's Play with Brigands youtube channel, you see just how simple many NES era games actually were once you figured them out...except maybe Battletoads and the Ghouls n Ghosts series. Those games were just hard period. In general, the vaunted difficulty of classic games in the NES era is highly exaggerated, and games actually got much easier during the 16-bit era with just a few exceptions. Super Castlevania IV is easier than any Castlevania game on the NES. Battle toads in Battlemaniacs is easier than the original, etc, etc, etc.

Limewater wrote:
Raging Justice wrote:I think it's unfortunate that too difficult is a taboo thing to say these days. The gaming culture has shifted in a way that no longer allows criticism of a game's difficulty. I guess maybe that's due to the success of Souls games. You'll be told to "git gud" or "stop whining". I firmly believe that video games should be challenging, but I also think it's possible to go too far in that direction. Unfortunately, nowadays a game can be as frustratingly hard as possible and will largely just get praised for it.

Like you said though, there are other games to play if one is too hard. I'm thankful for that, but as someone who has always enjoyed melee oriented games I don't like the direction most of them have gone in recent years with every single one having some variation of "perfect dodge" or "perfect parry". Now just to be clear, I don't so much mind the existence of these systems, just the fact that they are not an optional approach to combat. They are the focal point. You HAVE to master them or you will not make progress. THAT is what annoys me. Rather than have interesting games that allow for different approaches to combat for different types of players, now it's perfect parries/dodges or nothing. Sekiro is a perfect example of this. Either you can do it or you can't, and developers really don't care if you can't.


I also don't understand the idea of a game lacking optional play styles being a "modern" problem. Again, most "classic" or "retro" games have pretty much one, maybe two ways to play. Classic games tend to have relatively few mechanics, and those mechanics are very rarely optional. For example, there's really only one correct way to play Punch Out well. The game has one mechanic and that's the whole game. It's only a question of whether you can master that one mechanic.

Surely you wouldn't look at Super Mario Bros. and say, "I'd like the game, but I really don't like jumping. They should have made that optional."


Yeah, but I was talking about modern, 3d action games. They have far more depth and complexity that they can offer than older, retro games. Yet, they choose to just make everything revolve solely around parrying or perfect dodges

Plus, the insane timing required for these games is my issue. Punch Out was a timing based game, but opponents had patterns or tells to signal their attacks. Even Tyson at the end of the game signaled his attacks. If you look at modern games like the Batman Arkham series or some Assassin's Creed games, they had counter systems but they didn't require "perfect parries". The timing was much more reasonable, but now more and more games are copying Sekiro or the titles from Platinum Games with these insane timing required parry/dodge systems.
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Hazerd Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:39 pm

Guess my main gripe would be no couch co-op up to 4 players, i dont play console games online.... and the only time i play them multiplayer is at a friends, but we usually end up taking out the N64 instead.
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Limewater
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Limewater Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:24 am

Gamer profiles.

We recently got an XBox One for my kids. All of this gamer profile crap drives me batty. I don't care about achievements or anything. I just want to be able to have multiple save files on a game.

To accomplish this, I had to create a new Microsoft account with a new account name and a new password I would remember. What a buch of garbage!

It took me forty damn minutes just to set things up to have a second save available for Minecraft Dungeons!

Meanwhile, for The Legend of Zelda, I can just stick the cartridge in, select one of three save spots, pick a name, and be started in thirty seconds. I just have to remember to hold "RESET" when I turn the power off.
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Reprise
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Reprise Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:12 pm

Limewater wrote:Gamer profiles.

We recently got an XBox One for my kids. All of this gamer profile crap drives me batty. I don't care about achievements or anything. I just want to be able to have multiple save files on a game.

To accomplish this, I had to create a new Microsoft account with a new account name and a new password I would remember. What a buch of garbage!

It took me forty damn minutes just to set things up to have a second save available for Minecraft Dungeons!

Meanwhile, for The Legend of Zelda, I can just stick the cartridge in, select one of three save spots, pick a name, and be started in thirty seconds. I just have to remember to hold "RESET" when I turn the power off.


I second this.
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Segata Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:40 pm

This reeks of Phil Fish " All Japanese games suck!" a few years back.

Most AAA games and their bad practices are awful but there is a shit ton of amazing modern games. Some are modern and some have a retro sensibility. Scarlet Nexus,Astral Chain and Daemon X Machina are some of my fave new IPs last few years. My fave indie game is Astebreed. I've found hidden gems like Astria Ascending,Curved Space,Chorus,Earth's Dawn,Ruiner,The Ascent,Nex Machina. If I listed every hidden gem I found last few years I'd be here until next week. Then some more well known ones.
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Re: Why modern games suck

by RobertAugustdeMeijer Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:17 am

Funny, I remember the first time I played Mega Man X.
What's this, where's the level select? What is this boring level? Talking in a Mega Man game? You can't beat the first boss, what kind of forced cinematic bullcrap is this??

To this very day I still feel this mental hurdle to pick up Mega Man X because I find the tutorial level so offensive, lol!

I guess "modern" means different to things to different folks. I grew up on systems that loaded before you let go of the power button. And a single button press started the action. Anything more than that feels bloated to me : P
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Green_Warrior Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:38 am

The biggest turnoff for me is how modern consoles have turned into PCs and lost a lot of what made consoles preferable in the first place. Pick up and play? What's that? :P It was so bizarre to me how angry everyone got at Microsoft for the XBox One fiasco, but no one batted an eye at requiring a download to the hard drive to play a game when that generation came around. Even if you bought it physical. That means the disc is a glorified download code. I've still got to wait a half hour for it to download, and I still have to delete it from the hard drive to make room for another game some day because the amount of space they gave was inadequate. I could fit maybe 10 games on my PS4 which is unacceptable imo. At least with memory cards, they were cheap. I have to drop hundreds on an external hard drive, and all because the new gen didn't want to invest in better optical technology. The blu ray drive is too slow. And the updates! Oh lord, the updates! Every time I turn these bad boys on, it's time to update. I had planned on playing for an hour, but now half of that time will be spent staring at a progress bar. And they always want you online. I'm pretty sure you have to look up a tutorial to avoid being online all the time on Series X. That's how bad it has gotten. The days of just putting the game in and playing are long-gone, and few seem to care.

Outside of Switch, the consoles are so homogenized that the naked eye needs GameExplain videos to show the difference between an XSX and PS5 multi-platform game. These consoles are losing exclusives by the year, too, and that was one of the few things left that made them feel unique. Seeing as pretty much every single XSX and PS5 game are getting ports from the previous gen, I'm not sure why I need those consoles. The difference in graphics has gotten smaller with each generation, and this time was no different. But even outside of that, what's the difference between playing on PC and playing on those consoles anymore? Not much, as far as I can tell. Starting with Gen 8, it hasn't felt like the console producers were trying to impress consumers. It feels much more like, "This is what you're getting. Deal with it." - And that is exactly what people have done. That's the frustrating part. No one cares. I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud! :lol: These are minor inconveniences for most people, but it has really disconnected me personally from modern games.
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Re: Why modern games suck

by Tempest Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:34 am

I hate how modern games are released in broken states and the publishers expect you to pay full price for them. Then, when they've eventually updated them to what they should have been on release, they're a 10th of the price.

I also hate how most modern games need 160GB+ updates on day one. Come on, pull your fingers out developers.

That, and most modern games are all the same. You know the control system before you've even picked up the game. I would say that only the stories are different, but a lot of them are very similar. Only the indie scene offers innovation anymore.
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