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msimplay
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by msimplay Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:55 am

For me the original hardware feeling is the plug and play nature no configuring of files just to get it to run.
Once you have it hooked up you just plug in a couple of controllers 1 for you one for your friend and done you are playing the game.

The controllers themselves play a big part to how the games play also playing snes games is technically correct on an xbox one controller however when you compare it directly an original controller just feels better when playing Snes games.

Same for Megadrive games I like to play with an original controller.

I recently bought a retrobit Sega Megadrive controller and in theory it does the job but in practice I have to switch to xinput mode first by holding start and b for around 10 seconds.
Which again ties into more configuration.

There is also the issue of lag either from the software or from the controller itself now while I have done some configuration of emulators finding a suitable one for low lag and purchased low lag controllers when you don't want to worry about any of it original hardware is best especially for classic consoles on a crt again plug and play

Emulation is good but it's not fast

Also CRT TV's look best when playing classic consoles again plug and play
msimplay
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by msimplay Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:11 am

fuctfuct wrote:Probably not the best examples of what shaders can do in 2020. i didn't search very hard for vids. Lots of great examples on the Libretro forums :P
https://youtu.be/s4QOHe4bOZc
https://youtu.be/vSLM0uMDRsw


I'm glad they made an attempt to remedy the problem through filters but none of them look like actual composite through a CRT which I think looks fantastic.
But that's just my opinion a lot of people like to use RGB which I really dislike for earlier consoles up to the PS1 / Sega Saturn / N64 these consoles used dithering extensively
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RCBH928
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by RCBH928 Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:16 am

I agree with you. In fact I prefer emulation its so much more convenient with modern display, work on any devices, save states, and you can store all your games on local storage than dig through cartridges and CDs...that is if you have a working one. The main difference to me is the controller. I like to play with same layout/form controller doesnt have to be the original. Playing Genesis game or NeoGeo using Xbox layout just doesn't feel same to me. Those emulator developers are geniuses. I don't know how they make a cartridge game made for SNES run on Android phone near perfect(I notice no difference).

Albeit I do understand those who want to replicate the experience including switching on the console, loading times, saving on memory cards and all but I play retro games for the fun of them not because I want to experience the tech that was. If I could of course I would but too much hassle and a money pit. Emulation gives me at least 90-95% of it.
msimplay
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by msimplay Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:33 am

Depending on the emulator you can have an amazing experience with emulation or a terrible one.

I used to wonder why sometimes the control didn't feel the same regardless of the controller used and that was the day that I learned about input latency and lag in general.

I think this is the biggest thing that seperates emulation vs real hardware is how input latency on a modern display is handled.

Once you notice input latency you can't un-notice it.
Then if you are used to original hardware you will notice when something is different in emulation maybe a graphical glitch or pitch of the sound.

So accuracy became my other thing.

My goto these days is hybrid Everdrive carts that emulate different cartridge's in FPGA.
On real consoles.

Although I understand space requirements.
Many people just don't have the space for all that hardware and a CRT.
This is where emulation comes in yhe convenience of not having all that extra hardware just to play the games.
For a lot of people emulation is good enough and can't tell the difference unless in a side by side comparison
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RCBH928
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by RCBH928 Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:53 pm

msimplay wrote:Although I understand space requirements.
Many people just don't have the space for all that hardware and a CRT.
This is where emulation comes in yhe convenience of not having all that extra hardware just to play the games.
For a lot of people emulation is good enough and can't tell the difference unless in a side by side comparison


Not only space but wires, memory cards, cartridges, CDs, controllers...etc and these electronics are dying as time goes by and becoming more expensive and more rare, plus to get them you have to pay for shipping so that is like +$10 on every cart or device. Its really that much more just to get that extra 5% closer to the real thing.
msimplay
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by msimplay Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:07 pm

RCBH928 wrote:
msimplay wrote:Although I understand space requirements.
Many people just don't have the space for all that hardware and a CRT.
This is where emulation comes in yhe convenience of not having all that extra hardware just to play the games.
For a lot of people emulation is good enough and can't tell the difference unless in a side by side comparison


Not only space but wires, memory cards, cartridges, CDs, controllers...etc and these electronics are dying as time goes by and becoming more expensive and more rare, plus to get them you have to pay for shipping so that is like +$10 on every cart or device. Its really that much more just to get that extra 5% closer to the real thing.



Yes although I am selling my actual carts and cds in favour of ODE's and Everdrive carts so rareness is not much of an issue if you just want to play the games.
Also I get you on expense if you had to buy new hardware but for me most of my hardware has been amassed over the years

You know today I was playing Street Fighter 2 Turbo on the Street Fighter Anniversary collection and it felt responsive normal even.
However afterwards I played the same game using the CPS1 core on the MiSTer FPGA on a CRT and wow the difference in responsiveness is night and day.

I would say if you are good at a particular game on emulation then real hardware you will be even better

That reminds me on MiSTer it's a very good solution to a number of classic consoles and even Arcade machines although it does cost a bit of money initially.
It can connect to Modern TV's and CRT Monitors and the unit itself is quite small.
It uses roms to play games and can use low latency controllers like the ones from 8Bitdo or original controllers
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fuctfuct
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by fuctfuct Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:52 am

I've been watching tons of vids on YouTube, lots of NO EMULATION streams on twitch, and lots of console modding stuff. Seems like most people using original hardware these days are spending an awful lot of money, and time, trying to make their games look, and work, just like an emulator. Seems like most actually do want that gross sharp pixel emulator look. However, they also want the nerd ego boost of original hardware, and the "accuracy" most of them wouldn't even be able to notice. Seriously, accuracy snobs should be forced to blind test between OG, FPGA and GOOD emulation on a CRT. Forced!! I demand it be put into law! lol. :)

IMO...

The OG hardware experience would be: Taking the actual cart of Super Mario World, putting it in an SNES, and playing it on a small curved consumer grade CRT over RF. Or composite. No RGB. No PVM.

The OG hardware experience is not: firing up a line fixed 1-CHIP SNES with a custom RGB LED to a flash cart menu, browsing through 2 billion ROM files, booting Super Mario World, loading a save state, and playing VIA RGB to an OSSC on a 65in LCD/OLED with a wireless 8Bitdo controller.

Another OG hardware experience would be: Putting Super Mario Advance into a GBA and playing it.

Not: Picking up a GBA with a custom case made from McDonald's toy plastic, shitty aftermarket buttons and silicon pads, a modded IPS screen that has a PPI so high that it looks an like an emulator, booting to an Everdrive with every single GBA game known to man on it, finding Super Mario Advance and loading your save state.

I really don't care what people do. Honest! Play however you want. I just find it hilarious when people go on rants about oRiGiNaL hArDwArE in real life, forums, or on their stream, when they are playing like option 2 above. Last night I played Hyperstone Heist in Retroarch. I used a great CRT shader and a Retro-bit 6-button Genesis USB pad. Was great. I also played Bare Knuckle III (English translated "repro" cart) on a VA3 Model 2 Genesis on a 27in Flat CRT VIA composite. Also Great.

Retro games are great :)

<3
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Ziggy587
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by Ziggy587 Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:27 am

I'll take real hardware with a composite curved screen CRT any day over any emulation or HDTV solution. But what's wrong with RGB on a PVM? I get your point about using real hardware with an OSSC on an HDTV versus using an emulator because they can look identical. But a PVM, even with RGB, still looks like a CRT. An emulator or OSSC with the best settings and filters to replicate the CRT look still doesn't 100% replicate the look and feel of a real CRT.

An authentic real hardware experience would be using RF or composite on a bubble screen, but that's not the only reason to use real hardware. Personally, I don't like having to deal with settings on a scaler or emulator. One big reason I use real hardware is because it's still the easiest and most simple option.

Occasionally I'll look up a Goldeneye video on YouTube. I like finding ones that used real hardware (they usually mention this in the title or description) because those that used emulators for this game don't usually choose settings to replicate the authentic experience. Widescreen with HD textures isn't at all the same game. And if they're using modern WASD controls, then it's worthless. It's easy to tell if they're using mouse aim, which means any strategy they're using is worthless to me since the game plays completely different at that point. But I also wouldn't like the video if they captured 240p over composite.

If I streamed or posted videos, I would game on a CRT but split the signal to a scaler like the OSSC and capture it from that. No one would watch 240p composite on their 1080p or 4K monitors. It might be easier to just use an emulator to game AND capture at the same time, but then your viewers would wonder if your emulator is accurate. And I don't mean in an imperceivable way, but in a way that could be considered cheating.
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fuctfuct
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by fuctfuct Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:52 am

All good points :P

Ziggy587 wrote:But what's wrong with RGB on a PVM? I get your point about using real hardware with an OSSC on an HDTV versus using an emulator because they can look identical. But a PVM, even with RGB, still looks like a CRT.


I don't necessarily have a problem with PVMs, hehe. It is just not how 99.999999999999998% of people experienced these games originally. Nor were the games designed with them in mind. I also think they look bad. They just look like an emulator with a simple/basic scanline filter.

None of Retroarch's shaders are perfect but some are danged close. They look fantastic. I prefer them to real CRTs. I started using one that was made by the people that did Sonic Mania the other day. It's great. :)
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marurun
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Re: What exactly IS that "original hardware feeling" to you?

by marurun Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:00 am

fuctfuct wrote:I don't necessarily have a problem with PVMs, hehe. It is just not how 99.999999999999998% of people experienced these games originally. Nor were the games designed with them in mind.


We honestly don't know how most game were designed, really. Different dev houses had all different equipment they were using to craft graphics and test games. Some studios may, in fact, have designed their games on PVMs or PC monitors and done testing on only a single model TV, or perhaps the same PVM used to do the graphics. That's the problem with trying to speculate too hard about what the "intended" experience is.
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