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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by o.pwuaioc Sun May 10, 2020 4:46 pm

1) New super mario was wildly successful, but it had been years since a 2d mario released on a home console, in between mario world and NSMB we got mario 64, sunshine, and galaxy. At that point 2d mario had seen enough of a hiatus to bring it back

Is that why the GBA had 5 2D Mario games out on it? I don't know why we have to limit it only to home consoles. 2D continuations were plentiful during the era that home consoles received 3D games, and they often sold very well.

The better explanation is that people expected more expensive systems to take advantage of newer technologies. People then feel cheated if they have this new-fangled "3D system" with 2D games on it. We saw it with the transition from 2D to 3D, and we'll see it again with VR.

2) Having said that, NSMB is a good example of fan burnout, when it came out on the wii it was fresh and exciting but many fans and critics have since complained about how samey the series has become with all the versions of it

3) Mario Galaxy was also there to push the series forward, keeping the franchise relevant, I know you said you prefer NSMB, and that is fine, it is a fantastic game, but the vast majority of fans hold galaxy 1 and 2 as the best games in the series and it is held in a much higher regard than NSMB.

People have all sort of opinions. Some people think NSMB was stale, some people didn't like Galaxy. I thought Galaxy was boring. Bought and sold with a yawn. Plenty of people agree and disagree.

Do you think that if NSMB was released on the N64 it would have been as well recieved as it was? Do you think it would have been as successful as Mario 64?

I can't say about Mario exactly, but Mega Man X4 is proof that a continuation of the same, even after the tech-fetishists demanded change, could still do very well.

I do agree with you that many series fail when they try and transition into something new, which is probably the reason why so many IP's eventually die out. Sonic is a good example of a series which has still not found its footing and floundered for years. A series, when it is updated well, tends to keep the "spirit" (for lack of a better word) of its source material. You said that someone who likes 2d metroid may not enjoy 3d metroid, and I agree, but I would argue the vast number of metroid fans enjoy the prime series because, despite a radical shift in just about everything, it kept the spirit of what makes a metroid game a metroid game.

I think rather it's because Metroid Prime is a good game regardless of its lineage. If we never had Metroid and Super Metroid, Prime would still be well-regarded.

As for MMX4, it may have been well received and may have outsold legends, but X5, X6, and MM8 were universally panned, I enjoyed them but it does further demonstrate the point that fans will get burnt out on something if it does not evolve. I personally am the type of gamer who can play a game series he likes forever. I have played all 11 mainline mega man games and at least a dozen fan games and romhacks, as well as games inspired by mega man. I literally cant get enough, but I do not speak for the majority, the fact is, and this is a fact because we see it time and time and time again, if a series does not try and do something different, enough fans will lose interest to hurt sales, causing the series to die out.

According to the Japanese publication Famitsu, Mega Man X5 was the third best-selling video game in Japan during its release week at 46,033 copies sold.[32] It placed at number eight the following week with an additional 22,963 copies sold.[33] Media Create sales information showed that the game was 96th best-selling video game in Japan during 2000.[34] Dengeki Online reported that Mega Man X5 sold a total of 215,687 copies in Japan by the end of 2001, listing it as the 132nd best-selling game of the year in the region.[35] The game was eventually re-released as part of Sony's PlayStation The Best for Family range of budget titles in Japan.


:?:

And this was after the PS2 had come out. Seems like a Western problem to me where people were just in love with new tech.

Maybe I'm biased. In 2001, though I had a PS2, most of my time was spent playing older consoles or Atari collections. If I got sick of a series, it's because the series lost its way, lacked imagination, or, yes, felt stale, but not because it kept doing what its predecessor did best. And that radical change? I never cared for 3D outside of racing and first-person games. Maybe if developers spent their time polishing an excellent 2D game, it'd make money. I'm not saying you can't innovate, but

There are other factors at play. I think the early 2010s was a sort of renaissance for 2D games, which is why you see them popping up left and right. I don't think it's a nostalgia thing for exactly ten years ago, but rather a confluence of factors. Online stores on the Wii and PS3 meant older titles were available again, and people suddenly realized that gameplay > flash in the pan tech demos. It wasn't just Mario and Mega Man, but also Street Fighter and Marvel v. Capcom and Mortal Kombat and Sonic (with Sonic 4). The last 2D Sonic on a home console was 16 years before Sonic 4, not 10, and happened at the same time that all these other 2D revivals happened. It also coincided with peak indie 2D games like Braid (2008) and Super Meat Boy (2010) and the 2D iPhone/Android games like Angry Birds and Plants vs. Zombies (both 2009).

(Marvel v. Capcom suffered a unique blow in that Capcom lost the license to Marvel characters. But the 2D Smash series was stronger than ever throughout. Melee on GameCube was a big hit. And Smash now is the best selling fighter out there.)

If people got sick of it, it was because there was a glut of bad games, not a glut of good games, in that style.
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by pook99 Sun May 10, 2020 5:53 pm

o.pwuaioc wrote:Is that why the GBA had 5 2D Mario games out on it? I don't know why we have to limit it only to home consoles. 2D continuations were plentiful during the era that home consoles received 3D games, and they often sold very well.

The better explanation is that people expected more expensive systems to take advantage of newer technologies. People then feel cheated if they have this new-fangled "3D system" with 2D games on it. We saw it with the transition from 2D to 3D, and we'll see it again with VR.


In the context of what I was originally talking about we are only talking about home consoles, for the reasons you stated. Noone expects the next evolution to come from a hand held (excluding the switch but thats a whole different animal), so there are different rules for them and would lead to an entirely different discussion

o.pwuaioc wrote:People have all sort of opinions. Some people think NSMB was stale, some people didn't like Galaxy. I thought Galaxy was boring. Bought and sold with a yawn. Plenty of people agree and disagree.


Of course people have all sorts of opinions, if you google you can find groups of people that say the earth is flat and dinosaurs never existed, but when a company is marketing a game they have to go with the majority opinion, and the overwhelming majority supports what galaxy 1 and 2 did for the series.




o.pwuaioc wrote: I never cared for 3D outside of racing and first-person games. Maybe if developers spent their time polishing an excellent 2D game,


I'm not sure why this turned into 2d vs 3d, if your argument is that 2d games can be excellent then I am 100% in agreement, the vast majority of games I play are 2d platformers so your preaching to the choir on that one.

My argument is that game series need to evolve to keep consumer interest, evolve doesnt just mean 2d to 3d, resident evil 1-3 were not 2d games but needed to evolve in order to stay relevant, same could be said for the assasins creed series, or any number of other modern day franchises.

This discussion started in regards to Resident evil 6, Banjo Kazooie nuts and bolts, and Metroid Other M, none of those games evolved from a 2d space.



o.pwuaioc wrote:There are other factors at play. I think the early 2010s was a sort of renaissance for 2D games, which is why you see them popping up left and right. I don't think it's a nostalgia thing for exactly ten years ago, but rather a confluence of factors. Online stores on the Wii and PS3 meant older titles were available again, and people suddenly realized that gameplay > flash in the pan tech demos. It wasn't just Mario and Mega Man, but also Street Fighter and Marvel v. Capcom and Mortal Kombat and Sonic (with Sonic 4). The last 2D Sonic on a home console was 16 years before Sonic 4, not 10, and happened at the same time that all these other 2D revivals happened. It also coincided with peak indie 2D games like Braid (2008) and Super Meat Boy (2010) and the 2D iPhone/Android games like Angry Birds and Plants vs. Zombies (both 2009).

(Marvel v. Capcom suffered a unique blow in that Capcom lost the license to Marvel characters. But the 2D Smash series was stronger than ever throughout. Melee on GameCube was a big hit. And Smash now is the best selling fighter out there.)

If people got sick of it, it was because there was a glut of bad games, not a glut of good games, in that style.


1. I agree that 2010 was a resurgence for 2d games, because of the emerging indie game scene developers saw there was a good marketplace for classic games

2. I don't think anyone ever lost a focus on gameplay, 2d is not inherently better than 3d, nor is the opposite true. Would you rather play jekkyl and hyde on NES, or Mario odyssey? It all comes down to what that individual game presents. I certainly wouldnt call the great games on PS2 flash in the pan tech demos.

3. Street fighter, smash bors, and the vs series were always 2d, outside of the abysmal ex series, and they still are, so I'm not sure what your getting at there?

4. I agree that those pivotal indie games showed developers there was still an interest in 2d games.

I think somewhere along the way in these walls of texts we lost the original discussion. My original discussion was that game series need to evolve to stay relevant and sometimes those evolutions are not well received by their fan base because it strays from the source material. Not sure how we got here, but if you want to someone to argue that 2d is inferior to 3d then you will have to find someone else because I am a huge fan of 2d games.
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o.pwuaioc
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by o.pwuaioc Sun May 10, 2020 7:38 pm

pook99 wrote:I think somewhere along the way in these walls of texts we lost the original discussion. My original discussion was that game series need to evolve to stay relevant and sometimes those evolutions are not well received by their fan base because it strays from the source material. Not sure how we got here, but if you want to someone to argue that 2d is inferior to 3d then you will have to find someone else because I am a huge fan of 2d games.


I'm responding to this: "I think developers have to do this which is why I reject people who say x game is not part of the series because it plays different than its predecessors."

I was saying, labels aside ("series" doesn't mean much to me), I totally see where players can reject a game as part of natural evolution of the gameplay of a game series. 2D vs. 3D is just the example, but I could have used tank controls vs. FPS or platformer vs. RPG. But for my example, Mario 64 is a "different series" (or whatever term people arbitrarily decide upon) than Super Mario Bros/World. They don't feel the same. So cut people slack if they don't like the next iteration. It might not be their game flavor. Likewise, if some people hated RPGs but loved platformers, they would not like Super Mario RPG. That was saved, though, by not having the hype of "bringing the game back". Nuts and Bolts, as far as I know, was hyped as one thing and delivered as another.

I think DK64 is a great example here. It lacks the polish of Mario 64, and is generally not a great game. I think that is the injury to the insult of changing what is a top-tier platformer on the SNES. And no wonder, too, that Nintendo only did spin-off games until they brought back the 2D style.
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by pook99 Sun May 10, 2020 9:12 pm

o.pwuaioc wrote:
I'm responding to this: "I think developers have to do this which is why I reject people who say x game is not part of the series because it plays different than its predecessors."

I was saying, labels aside ("series" doesn't mean much to me), I totally see where players can reject a game as part of natural evolution of the gameplay of a game series. 2D vs. 3D is just the example, but I could have used tank controls vs. FPS or platformer vs. RPG. But for my example, Mario 64 is a "different series" (or whatever term people arbitrarily decide upon) than Super Mario Bros/World. They don't feel the same. So cut people slack if they don't like the next iteration. It might not be their game flavor. Likewise, if some people hated RPGs but loved platformers, they would not like Super Mario RPG. That was saved, though, by not having the hype of "bringing the game back". Nuts and Bolts, as far as I know, was hyped as one thing and delivered as another.
.


Thank you for clarifying.

I certainly don't ever begrudge anyone their tastes. I am never the guy who tells people what they should and shouldn't like, I just think that saying a game is not part of the series because it does something different/someone doesn't enjoy it is just silly.

Using resident evil 6 as an example, I get all the criticisms of it, even though I love the game, I get why people dislike it, and I get why people dont consider it a proper resident evil game, having said that, it doesnt change the fact that it is a resident evil game, RE6 is the direction that capcom chose to take the series and is as much of a resident evil game as any of the other mainline games.

The nuance I would add is that sometimes series break off into different things and then an established franchise becomes more than one IP, the easiest example would be classic Mega Man vs. Mega Man X, but there are other series which have also kind of branched off into different directions.
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by pook99 Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:19 pm

Do you ever have one of those weeks where you just play shit game after shit game? What a horrific week in gaming for me, lets review this week:

1) Played bullet witch on steam, decently fun, campy, mindless game, crashed repeatedly at the same part locking me out of finishing it, I believe this is the 5th game this year I have been unable to complete due to crashes/bugs, very frustrating

2) Tried death by degrees on PS2, never heard of the game but it is a beat em up/adventure game where you play as Nina from Tekken, extremely excited about it, but the combat system was abysmal, you attack with the right stick, flick the stick in any direction to attack in that direction, actually a cool idea in theory, in execution the specials are impossible to do.

Here is an example of one special move: Hold L1, tap forward forward on the left stick, on the second forward you have to press R3 at the same time you push the right stick forward, also replace forward with the direction you want to attack which causes all sorts of awkward angles.

Just completely unplayable

3) Mega Man 6 unique harassment (hack) This was your typically trashy hack that just adds challenge by making every jump pixel perfect and upping the speed of bosses to 100000 while not giving you any ability to deal with them, complete waste of my time

4) TMNT: battle nexus 2 (gba) sidescroller with horrible, clunky controls. In order to advance to the final levels you need to collect 85/100 crystals on all the other levels, they dont tell you this until the end which means if you want to beat it you have to replay the entire game, no thanks

5. Spirit roots: a 2d platformer on Steam which starts out decent enough but then you hit the ice world and all the fun goes out the window, blind jumps, invisible enemies, impossible to control, probably the worst experience of my life

That has been my week, the only game I have not given up on yet is resident evil darkside chronicles on wii, but this is not a great game, it is extremely disappointing, but I will write more about that when I either finish it or give up on it.

I have actually not enjoyed a single thing I played this week
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by Syndicate Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:16 am

...so I started Bloodborne this year and I swear I just had the hardest time w/this game. I couldn't get past the initial levels so I had put this one back on the shelf, I'll probably come back to it later though.
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by PartridgeSenpai Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:34 am

I'm not sure I'd say I've exactly "given up" on it, but after like, two months of not touching it, I think it's safe to say I don't really see myself finishing this runthrough of FFVII I started earlier this year ^^;

The game just wasn't really grabbing me. The story was neat and I was kinda getting into it, but the combat wasn't really interesting and the constant terrible mini-games were frustrating as well. I think I'm eventually gonna get a PS1 Classic (as the Japanese version has better games as well as presumably not needing to worry about PAL versions, given that all of these gotta be in Japanese), and that also has the International Edition on it. When I get that, I'll start another playthrough on there. I do really wanna finish it someday, but I don't think it's looking like that's gonna be something I do THIS year.
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Re: Games You Gave Up On 2020

by mobiusclimber Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:23 pm

Looks like I will probably never go back to playing AI The Somnium Files on the PS4. Real shame since it's by the same team that does the Nonary (999, etc) games series and the storyline is fairly interesting. But oh man I really don't like the timed segments and the puzzles really feel thrown together and impossible to solve except through trial and error. I like to use my brain to solve puzzles whenever possible, but this game practically begs to be played with a walkthru open the whole time. And since I have a huge backlog of games, I don't know when or if I'll be back to finish this one.
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