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Sarge wrote:Hey, N64 has Bangai-O, at any rate.

it also has Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth and Dezaemon 3D

sevin0seven wrote:

Sarge wrote:Hey, N64 has Bangai-O, at any rate.

it also has Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth and Dezaemon 3D

Yeah, the N64 may not have shmups the way it had secret fighting games, but there is a small set worth checking out.

And if you're wondering what I mean by that, based on its library size, the N64 has roughly a proportional amount of fighting games as the SNES...

Tanooki wrote:

marurun wrote:The modern shooter is about the score challenge and such games tend to follow more the danmaku style. That's not a style I prefer. The Saturn is in that space that straddles the line. I tend to rank the PC Engine and the Saturn both at the top of my preferred shooter platforms, for different reasons. But the Saturn/Playstation era was the end of shooters as far as I am concerned. Sometimes I enjoy newer ones, but more often than not I admire them graphically and then tune out. They're too busy and too distracting. I want a shooter that doesn't aspire to visual overload (which doesn't mean lacking in graphics or audio)

Are you talking about how shooters post 20th century have taken a twist towards what is concerned either a bullethell situation or total pattern based stuff where it's just an eye candy explosion all over requiring rote memorization to survive it? As you put it too busy and too distracting. If so, and that's kind of what you're thinking he prefers, then we're on the same page.

Yeah. Danmaku and Maniac shooters are sometimes considered separate and sometimes the same (this Wikipedia article section lumps them together), but I think they often appeal to similar audiences. Maniac shooters arguably arose in the mid-90s and the Saturn features a number of them. Danmaku tend to be slower and more meticulous, but they still blanket the screen with myriad moving objects, whereas the Maniac shooters simply plaster you with rapidly moving threats until you are paste. The latter is more a natural evolution, arguably, of the genre as it moved to more and more powerful hardware, but I think it also demonstrates a failure to put on the brakes before skidding over the line into masochism.

Darius Burst isn't what I'd call a Danmaku or Bullet Hell. It's hard though VERY VERY HARD. There are some challenges I'm struggling to get through too.

Radiant Silvergun is not the holy grail of Saturn shoot-em-ups. It's common and cheap compared to the real holy grails such as HyperDuel, Blast Wind, Steam Hearts, Battle Garegga, and Cotton Boomerang.

sevin0seven wrote:

Sarge wrote:Hey, N64 has Bangai-O, at any rate.

it also has Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth and Dezaemon 3D

Very well said. I've got two of the three so far, just need Dezaemon and sadly that's really about it. US side for a system with basically 300 games, and roughly 40% less than that (180) if you exclude sports/racing/wrasslin stuff the variety surprisingly is still there on some stuff. You'll get heavy with fighters, platformers, and a few other things, but then it's overly thin with RPG style, but in particular shooters. It is what it is, but at least what is there is fairly good stuff for those who really care to look for it. Japan didn't add a lot, but for what it did there are some nice gems and some are even translated now (everdrive.)

marurun wrote:Yeah. Danmaku and Maniac shooters are sometimes considered separate and sometimes the same (this Wikipedia article section lumps them together), but I think they often appeal to similar audiences. Maniac shooters arguably arose in the mid-90s and the Saturn features a number of them. Danmaku tend to be slower and more meticulous, but they still blanket the screen with myriad moving objects, whereas the Maniac shooters simply plaster you with rapidly moving threats until you are paste. The latter is more a natural evolution, arguably, of the genre as it moved to more and more powerful hardware, but I think it also demonstrates a failure to put on the brakes before skidding over the line into masochism.

Couldn't have put it better myself, mostly because I didn't bother with it at all as I just would watch some early clips online (ooh real player, apple and early flash) and pictures along with write ups and I knew it was a hot mess for me to even bother with. Danmaku I just outright avoid basically, and same goes with Maniac style as well as they're both basically bullet hell un-fun in every way. Oddly I do keep a copy of Ikaruga (GC) around as a reminder and it's cupcake compared to many. You're right it is an evolution thing, and I really can't play the blame game on the hardware, but developers really did need to knock that crap off. Sometimes MORE isn't more, it's less, far less enjoyable and less engaging to a wider audience. The whole mess just feels like it's playing to a specific smaller group just to keep them happy, so when a normal shooter comes along I'm quite happy.

Ikaruga has always been an exception for me. It's unique and interesting enough that I still have loads of fun playing it even if I suck at it.

Atari 2600 - Space Invaders, Phoenix, Gorf, Demon Attack, River Raid I & II, Vanguard, Super Cobra, Time Pilot, Defender I & II, Asteroids, Atlantis, Cosmic Ark, Gyruss

Love what I've played on PCE & Saturn but I can't afford $400 games.

My interest wanes after the 5th gen. Bullet hell is mediocre.

BoneSnapDeez wrote:Atari 2600 - Space Invaders, Phoenix, Gorf, Demon Attack, River Raid I & II, Vanguard, Super Cobra, Time Pilot, Defender I & II, Asteroids, Atlantis, Cosmic Ark, Gyruss

Love what I've played on PCE & Saturn but I can't afford $400 games.

My interest wanes after the 5th gen. Bullet hell is mediocre.

Don't forget Spider Fighter, Tac-Scan... the list goes on!

marurun wrote:That said, the PC Engine has no lack of great arcade shooter ports from all the major developers of the time, including R-Type, Raiden, Tatsujin, Gradius, Darius, and 1943 Kai. No 8 or 16-bit console has as exhaustive a list of arcade ports.

So, I would say that very few people are getting into shmups on the PC Engine for its arcade ports, which are often competent, but still outnumbered by the original games. Additionally, a lot of those arcade ports are available on the Saturn/PS1, where (correct me if I'm wrong) they're more accurate, anyway. Particularly in the case of the odd vertically scrolling arcade shooter on the PC Engine.

Tanooki wrote:

marurun wrote:But those shooters are from a different era than what you seem to prefer.

Are you talking about how shooters post 20th century have taken a twist towards what is concerned either a bullethell situation or total pattern based stuff where it's just an eye candy explosion all over requiring rote memorization to survive it? As you put it too busy and too distracting. If so, and that's kind of what you're thinking he prefers, then we're on the same page.

Well, no. Personally, I tend to prefer horizontal scrollers, and not the bullet-hell variety, like Progear, or Akai Katana. I also tend to be more of a fan of Toaplan than Cave. I don't really discriminate at all within the genre, though. A "bad" shmup is still better than a "bad" platformer. I was giving more of my unbiased opinion, with the exception of the FM Towns (Tatsujin Ou!!!). Personally, I really prefer the Genesis/Sega CD library of shooters, and would potentially swap the places of the Genesis and PC Engine, in my completely biased sentiments.

It might seem like I'm trying to belittle the TG16/PCE; as if shmups are the only thing that can prop it up, and knocking that pillar down makes the entire thing fold. I want to reiterate, though, that it's a premier shmup machine, and for me, it's a really cool console, with a robust library of games, beyond just shooters. However, on shooters alone, I'd say there are still two home consoles with better libraries. It's probably not really worth hashing out much more than this, though, since the topic is about the best platform for shmups, and I'd say it's the Saturn, but it, the 360, and the PC Engine are all among the best, regardless. Like, hypothetically though, if a mad doctor is pointing an 'anti-shmup ray™' at each of my Saturn and my PC Engine, and I can only save one, I'm running headlong at the Saturn.

Tanooki wrote:I prefer the 80s and early-mid 90s shooters that are more console style or arcade of that era. You could react many ways to situations and have some room to breathe too being more strategic in the play, not just playing a memory game.

Ironically, there's a bit of a soft subgenre of "memorizers" that typically include games like R-Type.

Dikdikvandik wrote:Darius Burst isn't what I'd call a Danmaku or Bullet Hell. It's hard though VERY VERY HARD. There are some challenges I'm struggling to get through too.

I mostly played Darius Burst on the PSP, and a little bit in the arcades about six years ago, and I found it to be a pretty easy game, especially in the Darius series. Are you playing that newer release from a couple years ago?

hashiriya1 wrote:Radiant Silvergun is not the holy grail of Saturn shoot-em-ups. It's common and cheap compared to the real holy grails such as HyperDuel, Blast Wind, Steam Hearts, Battle Garegga, and Cotton Boomerang.

This perception will never die. It'll always command a premium that will fuel it, too. I can't believe anyone spends more than a bill on Steam Heart's, though. I think I spent about $60 on it, and that was still too much. Would have loved to ever see Hyper Duel under $200.

Gunstar Green wrote:

BoneSnapDeez wrote:Atari 2600 - Space Invaders, Phoenix, Gorf, Demon Attack, River Raid I & II, Vanguard, Super Cobra, Time Pilot, Defender I & II, Asteroids, Atlantis, Cosmic Ark, Gyruss

Don't forget Spider Fighter, Tac-Scan... the list goes on!

Yeah, but how many of them can I tate, and play with an arcade stick? Time Pilot is legit one of my favorite shooters, though. Fortunately, it's on the Saturn.