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Sarge
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by Sarge Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:11 pm

Hey, N64 has Bangai-O, at any rate.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by pierrot Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:31 pm

Dikdikvandik wrote:Ghost Blade is actually really good I have it on PS4. Dux yes, it's crap.

I was suckered into backing Redux, and therefore hate everything Hucast stands for. I haven't actually played Ghost Blade, but it looks like fairly derivative crap, to me. I'm sure it plays an all right game of DDP-lite, but I have less than zero interest in it. I was also playing around with the other indie shmups on the Dreamcast recently, and realizing that none of them are really all that good, though. So, I'm currently in this mood of 'most indies on the Dreamcast aren't very good.' Gunlord, and Neo XYX are probably the main exceptions.

Dikdikvandik wrote:I used to have Zero Gunner 2 but sold it and Border Down early in the Summer. Don't regret doing so.

Not sure how you could get rid of one of the best shooters ever, and not regret it. I like Border Down, but I probably wouldn't actually regret it that much if I got rid of it, either. Zero Gunner 2 would be a completely different story, though.

samsonlonghair wrote:The answer is always Sega Genesis no matter what the question may be. 8)

Can't argue with that.

Tanooki wrote:[PC Engine]

Here's the "complete" list of shmups for the system: https://archives.tg-16.com/complete_list_of_tg16_pce_shooters.htm. You tell me what of those is better than any one of the Saturn versions of:
Radiant Silvergun
Batsugun
Battle Garegga
DoDonPachi
DonPachi
Layer Section
Layer Section II
Soukyugurentai
Gunbird
Sengoku Blade
Cotton 2
Cotton Boomerang
Parodius
Parodius Da
Gokujou Parodius
Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius
Sexy Parodius
Gradius
Gradius II
Nemesis 2
Time Pilot
Salamander
Salamander 2
Detana Twinbee
Twinbee Yahoo
Hyper Duel
Blast Wind
Shienryu
Sonic Wings Special
Strikers 1945
X-Multiply
Guardian Force
Darius Gaiden
Thunder Force AC
Thunder Force 4
Thunder Force 5
Kyuukyoku Tiger II Plus
1943 Kai
Gun.Smoke
Steam Heart's (Yes, this one's a troll)


For that matter, can you find any that are better than any one of these Xbox 360 versions of:
DDP DaiOuJou Black Label
DDP Daifukkatsu /Black Label
DDP SaiDaiOuJou
Mushihimesama
Mushihimesama Futari
Ketsui
Guwange
Muchi Muchi Pork
Pink Sweets
Akai Katana Shin
Deathsmiles
Deathsmiles II X
Espgaluda II
Raiden Fighters
Raiden Fighters 2
Raiden Fighters Jet
Raiden IV
Ikaruga
Radiant Silvergun
Eschatos
Mamoru-kun wa Norowarete Shimatta
XIIZeal
DeltaZeal
Raystorm
Strania
Under Defeat


The PC Engine is a great shmup machine, just on volume alone, but it's also a little like the NES, in that its wheat to chaff ratio is relatively small. When breaking out compilation titles, the shmup library on the Saturn is still about 2/3 of the size of the PC Engine, with far fewer duds to worry about. I don't think it's really much of a contest, personally, but I understand tastes differ. There's just a lot more top shelf stuff on the Saturn and Xbox 360, than on the PC Engine.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by marurun Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:55 pm

* of Thunder. Take your pick. Both designed by Technosoft expats.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by Dikdikvandik Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:50 am

I SUCK at Gate of Thunder, like REALLY REALLY SUCK at it. But that soundtrack is immortal. If I ever get a Sega CD I'll play whatever for it.

On Hucast, Hucast and NGDev team are one in the same. DUX is garbage but Ghost Blade really is a diamond in the rough. I know and speak to Rene (half of NGDev Team, The lone person at Hucast) on occasion.

How could I get rid of Zero Gunner 2 and not regret it?
Switch Version and what I was paid for it makes it hard to regret. I have an ISO of it ready to burn once I get my hands on some Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs.
I also sold it off before I fixed my modded Dreamcast.

Conversely I WILL NEVER sell any of my Saturn Games, Don't care how high Dodonpachi gets that stays with me.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by pierrot Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:37 am

marurun wrote:* of Thunder. Take your pick. Both designed by Technosoft expats.

Certainly both very good games, but are they really better than anything I listed, and if so, what? My point isn't that the PC Engine only has bland shooters, but rather that the majority of shooter fans are likely going to have a better time with the Saturn or 360 library as a whole. Some of that depends on taste, which I'll grant, but that's why I'll stress the wiggle room in, "majority." You'll get no argument from me that the Thunder games, Soldier Blade, Spriggan, Star Parodia, Sapphire, maybe Magical Chase, or even some other dark horse, are perfectly good shooters worth playing. Do you see the pattern forming, though? They're all really good, fun games, but pretty console oriented shooters, and I feel like, objectively, they don't really compare to the best of the arcade shooters. Probably more inviting, but not really better for scoring, or entertainment value. The other thing with that generation of consoles is the lackluster options for arcade sticks. Some won't really care about that, but it affects my thought process.

I love me some Mr Heli no Daibouken, but I would still probably rather play most of the Saturn or 360 shooters over it, when push comes to shove.



Dikdikvandik wrote:On Hucast, Hucast and NGDev team are one in the same. DUX is garbage but Ghost Blade really is a diamond in the rough. I know and speak to Rene (half of NGDev Team, The lone person at Hucast) on occasion.

It's been a while, so I don't really remember specifics, but I had thought that the Hucast dude stopped working with his NGDev Team partner to make the game he really wanted to under the Hucast brand (umpteen iterations of DUX). You're saying that he continued to work on NGDev Team projects at the same time? Back then it seemed like things weren't amicable between them. All I really know is that everything about DUX makes me upset, and in going back through the NGDev Team games released on the Dreamcast, Fast Striker is terri-bad, and I don't like Last Hope much better, but GunLord and Neo XYX are pretty good. I had sort of attributed that to life before and after Hucast.


Dikdikvandik wrote:Switch Version

Oh, right. I don't really care much about modern consoles, so I forgot that Zero Gunner 2 was on the Switch. Question, though: Are these Switch releases of Zero Gunner 2, Battle Garegga, etc just emulation, or are they actual ports?
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by ElkinFencer10 Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:14 am

PC Engine is probably my pick for best shmup platform, but Blazing Star and Aero Fighters 2 are probably my two favorite shmups, so Neo Geo is a close #2 for me.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by Ack Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:28 pm

Watara Supervision

And you guys don't love DUX Pink Bullets Edition? That's crazy! IT HAS PINK BULLETS!!!
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by marurun Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:15 pm

pierrot wrote:They're all really good, fun games, but pretty console oriented shooters, and I feel like, objectively, they don't really compare to the best of the arcade shooters. Probably more inviting, but not really better for scoring, or entertainment value. The other thing with that generation of consoles is the lackluster options for arcade sticks. Some won't really care about that, but it affects my thought process.


I see where you're going. I tend to prefer console shooters to arcade shooters, as I'm not a score/1cc player. That said, the PC Engine has no lack of great arcade shooter ports from all the major developers of the time, including R-Type, Raiden, Tatsujin, Gradius, Darius, and 1943 Kai. No 8 or 16-bit console has as exhaustive a list of arcade ports. But those shooters are from a different era than what you seem to prefer. The modern shooter is about the score challenge and such games tend to follow more the danmaku style. That's not a style I prefer. The Saturn is in that space that straddles the line. I tend to rank the PC Engine and the Saturn both at the top of my preferred shooter platforms, for different reasons. But the Saturn/Playstation era was the end of shooters as far as I am concerned. Sometimes I enjoy newer ones, but more often than not I admire them graphically and then tune out. They're too busy and too distracting. I want a shooter that doesn't aspire to visual overload (which doesn't mean lacking in graphics or audio)
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by Gunstar Green Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:07 pm

16-bit shooters are my sweet spot. They're the most fun and nostalgic for me. So I'm a Mega Drive and PC-Engine guy when it comes to shooters.

Objectively though, Saturn and the 360 really take the cake, eat the entire cake and leave no cake for anyone else to enjoy.
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Re: Best platform for Shmups? Discuss

by Tanooki Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:43 pm

marurun wrote:
pierrot wrote:They're all really good, fun games, but pretty console oriented shooters, and I feel like, objectively, they don't really compare to the best of the arcade shooters. Probably more inviting, but not really better for scoring, or entertainment value. The other thing with that generation of consoles is the lackluster options for arcade sticks. Some won't really care about that, but it affects my thought process.


I see where you're going. I tend to prefer console shooters to arcade shooters, as I'm not a score/1cc player. That said, the PC Engine has no lack of great arcade shooter ports from all the major developers of the time, including R-Type, Raiden, Tatsujin, Gradius, Darius, and 1943 Kai. No 8 or 16-bit console has as exhaustive a list of arcade ports. But those shooters are from a different era than what you seem to prefer. The modern shooter is about the score challenge and such games tend to follow more the danmaku style. That's not a style I prefer. The Saturn is in that space that straddles the line. I tend to rank the PC Engine and the Saturn both at the top of my preferred shooter platforms, for different reasons. But the Saturn/Playstation era was the end of shooters as far as I am concerned. Sometimes I enjoy newer ones, but more often than not I admire them graphically and then tune out. They're too busy and too distracting. I want a shooter that doesn't aspire to visual overload (which doesn't mean lacking in graphics or audio)


Are you talking about how shooters post 20th century have taken a twist towards what is concerned either a bullethell situation or total pattern based stuff where it's just an eye candy explosion all over requiring rote memorization to survive it? As you put it too busy and too distracting. If so, and that's kind of what you're thinking he prefers, then we're on the same page.

I prefer the 80s and early-mid 90s shooters that are more console style or arcade of that era. You could react many ways to situations and have some room to breathe too being more strategic in the play, not just playing a memory game. For me the PCEngine had it best, hell even the Neo Geo did, but I ignored it for this list because it has a high quality low quantity list so it's hard to call it a best. Neo-Geo deserves a hard nod for excellent shooters, and i own much of them too, but up against the PCE and even Saturn it lacks the quantities to get a best nod.
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