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dunpeal2064
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dunpeal2064 Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:59 pm

I'll explain the root of my problem with credit feeding in a Cave shmup, via examples and comparisons, since we all enjoy those so much, and I'll direct it at Bone, because that way it'll make sense, and hopefully everyone will understand.


Okay, so Bone, remember when I was playing Ys for the first time? Sharing that experience with you, talking about the bosses, the difficulties I had, etc, was an awesome experience for me. I know you love these games, and I really enjoyed talking about them with you (and I hope it was at least somewhat entertaining to see someone enjoy one of your favorite games).

When you credit feed Mushi Futari, you basically eliminate that discussion. I can't ask you, "Man, what did you think of the 2nd half of Stage 3?", or, "Dude, isn't Palm so much better at taking out the 4th boss?", Or "Dude, there is a hidden extend in Stage 5, with that you could probably kill Larsa!" or, "Oh, Stage 2 boss 2nd form, you should probably drop a bomb there". None of that. We aren't even playing the same game. You're Stage 3 boss will be, "I don't know, I died and bombed and put in a credit"

In all honesty, I just want to discuss the games I love with you guys, and credit feeding eliminates the need for any discussion, past "good music, cool sprites"

This isn't true for most games. Not even all shmups. You can credit feed a shmup with checkpoints and still experience the game, whether its a "legit" clear or not. You can stick in the Contra code and still share your experiences. I feel it really is a unique thing with these shmups that have been meticulously designed around 1-credit play.

I don't care if you 1cc every game, or any game, but it sucks when people play your favorite game in a way where discussion of its awesomeness is basically irrelevant.
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:00 pm

Perhaps it is fair to say that a shmup can be "completed" on any number of credits but only "beaten" on one?
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:01 pm

dunpeal2064 wrote:I'll explain the root of my problem with credit feeding in a Cave shmup, via examples and comparisons, since we all enjoy those so much, and I'll direct it at Bone, because that way it'll make sense, and hopefully everyone will understand.


Okay, so Bone, remember when I was playing Ys for the first time? Sharing that experience with you, talking about the bosses, the difficulties I had, etc, was an awesome experience for me. I know you love these games, and I really enjoyed talking about them with you (and I hope it was at least somewhat entertaining to see someone enjoy one of your favorite games).

When you credit feed Mushi Futari, you basically eliminate that discussion. I can't ask you, "Man, what did you think of the 2nd half of Stage 3?", or, "Dude, isn't Palm so much better at taking out the 4th boss?", Or "Dude, there is a hidden extend in Stage 5, with that you could probably kill Larsa!" or, "Oh, Stage 2 boss 2nd form, you should probably drop a bomb there". None of that. We aren't even playing the same game. You're Stage 3 boss will be, "I don't know, I died and bombed and put in a credit"

In all honesty, I just want to discuss the games I love with you guys, and credit feeding eliminates the need for any discussion, past "good music, cool sprites"

This isn't true for most games. Not even all shmups. You can credit feed a shmup with checkpoints and still experience the game, whether its a "legit" clear or not. You can stick in the Contra code and still share your experiences. I feel it really is a unique thing with these shmups that have been meticulously designed around 1-credit play.

I don't care if you 1cc every game, or any game, but it sucks when people play your favorite game in a way where discussion of its awesomeness is basically irrelevant.


Awesome post.
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alienjesus
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by alienjesus Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:02 pm

I'll reiterate again my feelings on that matter:

Does the game offer me a way to continue, without inputting a cheat code, or deviating from the standard options

If no: it's not beaten unless I beat it within the standard settings

If yes: If I use it, it's something actively offered by the game, and I'll make use of it as much as I want.


Does it mean I've become an expert at the game - no.
Does it mean I have fully appreciated the game - not necessarily.
Does it mean I haven't been able to appreciate the game at all - also no. I've seen a lot more of the game than I probably would otherwise.
Is it cheating? - no, the game offers it by default, it's a standard setting
Does it mean I won't try to limit my continues or play the game in a different way in future - absolutely not. In fact, I plan to try limiting myself to 3 continues next time I play (seems pretty standard for a non-arcade shmup, and gives me the ability to try my hand at later parts of the game and learn those too).

Am I bored of this conversation - yup. Sure am.
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noiseredux
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by noiseredux Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:03 pm

dunpeal's post was brilliantly elaborated. Thanks, Chaz.

I still don't care if someone puts a credit-feed on their list, since these lists mean nothing to anyone but ourselves and are generally only used to kick off further discussion (such as here).
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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BogusMeatFactory Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:07 pm

YAY happy people explaining happy feelings! All is right with the world!
Ack wrote:I don't know, chief, the haunting feeling of lust I feel whenever I look at your avatar makes me think it's real.

-I am the idiot that likes to have fun and be happy.
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:08 pm

noiseredux wrote:
I still don't care if someone puts a credit-feed on their list, since these lists mean nothing to anyone but ourselves and are generally only used to kick off further discussion (such as here).


Agreed. I credit fed Wolf Fang like a fiend just last week and listed it. I don't consider credit-feeding to be cheating, but I also don't consider the end product to really be a "beaten" game so much as a "completed" one. Since two running lists is stupid, I just group the "completed" games with "beaten" ones and feel it is useful from time to time to explain why I decided to list the game. I ask questions generally to understand the level of accomplishment by others who list games in similar genres.
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alienjesus
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by alienjesus Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:11 pm

dsheinem wrote:
noiseredux wrote:
I still don't care if someone puts a credit-feed on their list, since these lists mean nothing to anyone but ourselves and are generally only used to kick off further discussion (such as here).


Agreed. I credit fed Wolf Fang like a fiend just last week and listed it. I don't consider credit-feeding to be cheating, but I also don't consider the end product to really be a "beaten" game so much as a "completed" one. Since two running lists is stupid, I just group the "completed" games with "beaten" ones and feel it is useful from time to time to explain why I decided to list the game. I ask questions generally to understand the level of accomplishment by others who list games in similar genres.



For what it's worth, I use the backloggery definitions where 'beating' a game means getting to the end, and 'completing' a game means doing everything. A 1CC might be necessary for a completion in that case.

Kinda the opposite to how you'd define them.
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noiseredux
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by noiseredux Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:15 pm

dsheinem wrote:Since two running lists is stupid, I just group the "completed" games with "beaten" ones and feel it is useful from time to time to explain why I decided to list the game. I ask questions generally to understand the level of accomplishment by others who list games in similar genres.


yeah exactly.

Related: Looking so forward a week or so from now when I list NFL 2K to seeing JM finally show up in this thread to question how I beat it. (How many games is his 2014 list up to now, Dave?)
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:19 pm

alienjesus wrote:

For what it's worth, I use the backloggery definitions where 'beating' a game means getting to the end, and 'completing' a game means doing everything. A 1CC might be necessary for a completion in that case.

Kinda the opposite to how you'd define them.


I thought you were worn out of this discussion :lol:

The definitions of these terms are themselves fairly arbitrary and culturally specific (as Alexander's article illustrates). The beauty (horror?) of this thread is that we aren't beholding to Backloggery's definitions or anyone else's - instead we get to regularly clarify our usage based on context :)
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