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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BogusMeatFactory Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:31 pm

alienjesus wrote: It doesn't change the fact you all smell though.


Like a freshly powdered baby's bum!
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:34 pm

Ack wrote:
A better analogy would have been fighting games, beat 'em ups, or best of all, run and guns. How many of you have beaten Metal Slug? I mean really beaten it?


I think fighting games are a fair comparison. In my view games like Metal Slug, Smash TV, and a high percentage of arcade Beat 'Em Ups aren't designed to be 1cc'ed and it is really only the most insanely dedicated players who can do it (Eugene Jarvis told me, for example, that only one guy at Midway could 1cc Smash TV and they thought he was nuts). Shmups, as a genre, is one where many skills carry over from game to game and there's a healthy community of people who can and do 1cc the games regularly.

On games like Metal Slug I think a self-imposed credit limit is much more reasonable.
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:37 pm

alienjesus wrote:
I use continues in other genres. I don't see why using ANY continues is so frowned upon in the shmup genre. If I use a continue in Streets of Rage or Sonic the Hedgehog (which admittedly I don't any more, but my point stands), i'd still mark it as beaten. The ending in Sonic 1 certainly isn't anything more than in most Cave shmups.

In addition, other shmups I've played with limited continues, I'd be happy to use them. I beat Lords of Thunder, Parodius, Nemesis and other using continues. I don't see why Cave games should be different.


The difference with those games is that, by default, they give you finite continues or allow them to be earned in game: that's the design. In an arcade-based shmup, that just isn't how it is designed.
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prfsnl_gmr
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by prfsnl_gmr Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:45 pm

dsheinem wrote:
BoneSnapDeez wrote:It's completely arbitrary criteria set by the player, not by the game itself. If you choose to play a shmup (or whatever) like that, that's cool. But others are free to set their own criteria.


It isn't an arbitrary criteria at all. A good shmup is designed by a developer so that it is possible to 1cc the game after enough practice/with enough skill. (By contrast, a poor shmup is designed strictly to force quarter-munching.) Feeding credits doesn't promote learning those skills, and any decision about whether a specific shmup can be fairly 1cc'd or not (or about how many credits would be fair) is something you can only learn after spending serious time with it trying to 1cc it. In other words, I can bring myself to count a shmup as "beaten" with more than 1 credit ONLY if I know from spending time with it that a 1cc is basically impossible for me or for someone with slightly more skill than I.

And the analogies to RPGs or Platformers doesn't make any sense, sorry. Those games give you an ending for completing the story: the game has a built-in finish and the extra stuff is extra. In a shmup, the built in finish is usually either a Continue/End Game screen (you didn't beat it) or some kind of Victory/End Game screen (you beat it in some fashion).


I understand your point, and I think that you do not truly "appreciate" the design in certain games with credit feeding. I do not think that this restriction is limited to the shmup genre, however, and I think it is equally possible to miss the best aspects of many games' design if you do not complete them under certain restrictions or complete all of the "bonus" content. (Certainly, there are many, many ARPGs and RPGs where the "bonus" content is just as, if not more, compelling than the campaign.)

Fully appreciating a game's design and "beating" it, however, are different things. If a person reads every page of a great novel, then I would say that he or she has "read" it even if he or she missed the importance, subtext, symbolism, etc. (He or she certainly would not have "appreciated" the novel in those circumstances, but I could not deny that the person finished reading it.) The same is true for games. If you play through all of the levels, then - IMO - you have "beaten" it. Whether you have completed it, appreciated its design, etc. is another question.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by noiseredux Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:47 pm

Jordan is the best guy at explaining stuff.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by prfsnl_gmr Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:50 pm

noiseredux wrote:Jordan is the best guy at explaining stuff.


Thanks, Noise!

"Beating" a game is, IMO, the equivalent of "reading" a book or "watching" a film. If you make it to the ending sequence, if you read every word, and if you remain conscious until the credits, you have "beaten" a game, "read" a book, and "watched" a movie. You may not have "appreciated" or "completed" any of them, but you have, IMO, fulfilled the most basic requirement for eventual appreciation or completion.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by alienjesus Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:52 pm

prfsnl_gmr wrote:
noiseredux wrote:Jordan is the best guy at explaining stuff.


Thanks, Noise!

"Beating" a game is, IMO, the equivalent of "reading" a book or "watching" a film. If you make it to the ending sequence, if you read every word, and if you remain conscious until the credits, you have "beaten" a game, "read" a book, and "watched" a movie. You may not have "appreciated" or "completed" any of them, but you have, IMO, fulfilled the most basic requirement for eventual appreciation or completion.


In this case, playing through the whole game, then going back and limiting myself in some way probably lets me appreciate the game more. I'd not be able to appreciate any design past stage 3 otherwise :lol:

Maybe we should just spin this out into it's own thread (if one doesn't exist already)
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BoneSnapDeez Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:54 pm

dsheinem wrote:
BoneSnapDeez wrote:It's completely arbitrary criteria set by the player, not by the game itself. If you choose to play a shmup (or whatever) like that, that's cool. But others are free to set their own criteria.


It isn't an arbitrary criteria at all. A good shmup is designed by a developer so that it is possible to 1cc the game after enough practice/with enough skill. (By contrast, a poor shmup is designed strictly to force quarter-munching.) Feeding credits doesn't promote learning those skills, and any decision about whether a specific shmup can be fairly 1cc'd or not (or about how many credits would be fair) is something you can only learn after spending serious time with it trying to 1cc it. In other words, I can bring myself to count a shmup as "beaten" with more than 1 credit ONLY if I know from spending time with it that a 1cc is basically impossible for me or for someone with slightly more skill than I.


I don't disagree. And it sounds like I play shmups in the same way you do. I was speaking more to the idea that a shmup can be beaten and only be beaten with a 1CC. That is arbitrary in the sense that the decision to press forward is decided by a player, not the developers. If the game is allowing you to continue, it's up to the player to decide whether or not to press forward or say "hope I have better luck next time".

Also, isn't a bit of a paradox that Cave games are "designed to be beaten on one credit" yet offer infinite continues?

alienjesus wrote:The whole 1CC thing is something I just don't like about shmup communities. I'm not playing for high scores or for a perfect run, I'm playing to have fun going through the game and to experience it.


Agreed. I don't know if the hardcore shmup fans realize how many "casuals" there are. I approach a game like Mushihime-sama Futari Ver 1.5 the same way I approach Kirby's Epic Yarn. I just kick back and play it.
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dsheinem
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:55 pm

prfsnl_gmr wrote:Fully appreciating a game's design and "beating" it, however, are different things. If a person reads every page of a great novel, then I would say that he or she has "read" it even if he or she missed the importance, subtext, symbolism, etc. (He or she certainly would not have "appreciated" the novel in those circumstances, but I could not deny that the person finished reading it.) The same is true for games. If you play through all of the levels, then - IMO - you have "beaten" it. Whether you have completed it, appreciated its design, etc. is another question.


This works to a point, but "beating" has this double-meaning of "getting to the end" and "taming" or "subduing" (or something similar). I think that, with shmups, credit-feeding is a sign that you may have gotten to the end, but that the game beat you instead of the other way around.

Relevant: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2099 ... _world.php
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prfsnl_gmr
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by prfsnl_gmr Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:58 pm

You didn't 1CC Kirby's Epic Yarn? C'mon...man up...

(Actually - since you can't die in that game - I would be impressed if you found a way to continue...)

dsheinem wrote:This works to a point, but "beating" has this double-meaning of "getting to the end" and "taming" or "subduing" (or something similar). I think that, with shmups, credit-feeding is a sign that you may have gotten to the end, but that the game beat you instead of the other way around.

Relevant: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2099 ... _world.php


True. Getting to the ending sequence is the only objective criteria we have for "beating" most games, however, and unless we want to rename this thread "Games Where You Have Seen the Ending Sequence 2014", I think it is the only criteria we should have for listing games in this thread.
Last edited by prfsnl_gmr on Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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