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alienjesus
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by alienjesus Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:02 am

dunpeal2064 wrote:Thoroughly understanding the mechanics goes a long way in this game. Its actually not too difficult. The bosses live for far too long though.



I'm generally fine on the levels. I die, but I know my mistakes and I can see how to get through. Most of the latter bosses slaughter me though.
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BoneSnapDeez
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BoneSnapDeez Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:45 am

dunpeal2064 wrote:I'll be the guy.

It doesn't count unless you 1cc it :P


I can't tell if you're sarcastic and I'm hesitant to drag up this old argument but this is a bit like saying that an RPG isn't beaten until every sidequest is completed, every character is equipped with the best gear, you have a full stash of items, and a completed bestiary. Or that Super Mario Bros. isn't really beaten until every coin is collected. Or whatever.

It's completely arbitrary criteria set by the player, not by the game itself. If you choose to play a shmup (or whatever) like that, that's cool. But others are free to set their own criteria.

That's not to say I don't understand where you're coming from. There is a certain satisfaction that comes from mastering a game. And if I play an arcade-y game that allows for credit feeds I'll typically replay it until I'm somewhat satisfied. But again, that's just me. I play games to relax and unwind and worrying about whether or not I'm "competitive" - or if I "really" beat it according to someone other person's standards - would just suck the fun out of everything.
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dunpeal2064 Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:49 am

It was a little ribbing, but it is how I honestly feel.

I would liken it to beating an rpg with gameshark codes that make you invincible and make the game completely impossible to lose.

If I went by your comparison, that would be like me saying you can't count it as a 1cc unless you do EVERYTHING in the game, which would include the hardest scoring tricks, and beating the world record.

Getting a 1cc in a lot of games, especially Cave games, is just the tip of the iceburg. It is hardly equivalent to perfecting an RPG imo.

Of course, play the game however you like. I'm happy people are playing the games at all, and I don't mean to shoo people away with this line of thinking. I do, however, think that you are really not experiencing what the developers intended whatsoever when you credit feed these games.

I want to clarify that this is not directed at alienjesus, and I would have not brought all this up had it not been asked of me. I'm not trying to make you feel like you shouldn't have the game on the list. Its just my opinion. Cave is my favorite developer, and I'm sure Bone feels just as passionate about Falcom.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BogusMeatFactory Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:58 am

dunpeal2064 wrote:It was a little ribbing, but it is how I honestly feel.

I would liken it to beating an rpg with gameshark codes that make you invincible and make the game completely impossible to lose.

If I went by your comparison, that would be like me saying you can't count it as a 1cc unless you do EVERYTHING in the game, which would include the hardest scoring tricks, and beating the world record.

Getting a 1cc in a lot of games, especially Cave games, is just the tip of the iceburg. It is hardly equivalent to perfecting an RPG imo.

Of course, play the game however you like. I'm happy people are playing the games at all, and I don't mean to shoo people away with this line of thinking. I do, however, think that you are really not experiencing what the developers intended whatsoever when you credit feed these games.


I don't know. It really depends. I know that it is easy to get in the mindset of pumping credits into the emulator and it really does make you lazier in the gameplay. Why should I figure out the patterns if I can just blast my way through?

I don't believe that 1cc is completion, but I do think that you should give it your all and record how much it did cost you. If you are sitting there at around $15 worth of credits then....yeah....not so much.

With beat-'em-ups, I tend to be aroung $4-$8 depending on the game, which isn't too bad and shmups...well.....there is a reason why I don't put those on my games beaten list.
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dunpeal2064 Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:02 pm

My problem is that Cave games are designed around 1-credit play. When you play an RPG, you are still getting what the developer intended, even if you don't completely complete the game.

For example: In Mushi Futari, you pick up powerups throughout the levels, and do not lose them when you die. This means that, at the Stage 4 midboss, you will reach Max Power. If you game over on Stage 1 and pick up the Max Power item they give you, you will practically break the game. Everything dies ridiculously fast. Enemies don't get to shoot their patterns, bosses die way too fast.

It really is different than an RPG, so its a hard comparison to make... but imagine if you lost a boss battle in an RPG, and were given the option to just stand your characters back up mid-fight, with the boss still damaged, and you were given quadruple power to defeat him. Did you really beat the boss if you did this? In my opinion, no.

The game is only 20 minutes long, so starting over when you die is like starting from a save point when you die in an RPG.

Again, I want to clarify: This is just my opinion. I am not trying to put you guys down, and I feel like I am coming across as some sort of "elitist" with what I am saying here, which is not what I intend. I just... spend a LOT of time with these games, and this is honestly how I feel.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by BogusMeatFactory Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:11 pm

Hey I like your honesty and I am glad that you are clarifying since it is so easy to leave your words up to our own interpretation and that always gets everyone in trouble haha.

I guess it really does depend on the game, especially with that power up example. I would be more comfortable with people using more credits than I am on using save states for me, but again, I stay away from shmups because my brain can not handle all that stimulation.
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by dsheinem Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:14 pm

BoneSnapDeez wrote:It's completely arbitrary criteria set by the player, not by the game itself. If you choose to play a shmup (or whatever) like that, that's cool. But others are free to set their own criteria.


It isn't an arbitrary criteria at all. A good shmup is designed by a developer so that it is possible to 1cc the game after enough practice/with enough skill. (By contrast, a poor shmup is designed strictly to force quarter-munching.) Feeding credits doesn't promote learning those skills, and any decision about whether a specific shmup can be fairly 1cc'd or not (or about how many credits would be fair) is something you can only learn after spending serious time with it trying to 1cc it. In other words, I can bring myself to count a shmup as "beaten" with more than 1 credit ONLY if I know from spending time with it that a 1cc is basically impossible for me or for someone with slightly more skill than I.

And the analogies to RPGs or Platformers doesn't make any sense, sorry. Those games give you an ending for completing the story: the game has a built-in finish and the extra stuff is extra. In a shmup, the built in finish is usually either a Continue/End Game screen (you didn't beat it) or some kind of Victory/End Game screen (you beat it in some fashion).
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by noiseredux Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:22 pm

Q. "Does credit-feeding count as beaten?"
A. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YJ8Sylnn2s&feature=kp

dunpeal2064 wrote:Again, I want to clarify: This is just my opinion. I am not trying to put you guys down,


Elitist!

dsheinem wrote:someone with slightly more skill than I.


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Ack
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by Ack Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:23 pm

dsheinem wrote:
BoneSnapDeez wrote:It's completely arbitrary criteria set by the player, not by the game itself. If you choose to play a shmup (or whatever) like that, that's cool. But others are free to set their own criteria.


It isn't an arbitrary criteria at all. A good shmup is designed by a developer so that it is possible to 1cc the game after enough practice/with enough skill. (By contrast, a poor shmup is designed strictly to force quarter-munching.) Feeding credits doesn't promote learning those skills, and any decision about whether a specific shmup can be fairly 1cc'd or not (or about how many credits would be fair) is something you can only learn after spending serious time with it trying to 1cc it. In other words, I can bring myself to count a shmup as "beaten" with more than 1 credit ONLY if I know from spending time with it that a 1cc is basically impossible for me or for someone with slightly more skill than I.

And the analogies to RPGs or Platformers doesn't make any sense, sorry. Those games give you an ending for completing the story: the game has a built-in finish and the extra stuff is extra. In a shmup, the built in finish is usually either a Continue/End Game screen (you didn't beat it) or some kind of Victory/End Game screen (you beat it in some fashion).


A better analogy would have been fighting games, beat 'em ups, or best of all, run and guns. How many of you have beaten Metal Slug? I mean really beaten it?
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alienjesus
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Re: Games Beaten 2014

by alienjesus Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:30 pm

dsheinem wrote:And the analogies to RPGs or Platformers doesn't make any sense, sorry. Those games give you an ending for completing the story: the game has a built-in finish and the extra stuff is extra. In a shmup, the built in finish is usually either a Continue/End Game screen (you didn't beat it) or some kind of Victory/End Game screen (you beat it in some fashion).


I use continues in other genres. I don't see why using ANY continues is so frowned upon in the shmup genre. If I use a continue in Streets of Rage or Sonic the Hedgehog (which admittedly I don't any more, but my point stands), i'd still mark it as beaten. The ending in Sonic 1 certainly isn't anything more than in most Cave shmups.

In addition, other shmups I've played with limited continues, I'd be happy to use them. I beat Lords of Thunder, Parodius, Nemesis and other using continues. I don't see why Cave games should be different.

The whole 1CC thing is something I just don't like about shmup communities. I'm not playing for high scores or for a perfect run, I'm playing to have fun going through the game and to experience it.

Now I've beaten it by credit feeding, I'm happy to go back and challenge myself or limit myself in some way. It doesn't change the fact in my head that it is finished.

The fact is that these games were built with a way to endlessly continue, even in their original arcade incarnation. If I choose to do that, then thats what I'll do. If it had limited them in any way (even if infinite continues was another option) I wouldn't. The fact remains that 1cc is a self imposed challenge, and not something the game required me to do to beat it.

Ack wrote:A better analogy would have been fighting games, beat 'em ups, or best of all, run and guns. How many of you have beaten Metal Slug? I mean really beaten it?


My argument being that the game allows me to play through with infinite lives, I have really beaten it. Beating a game on one life isn't a requirement for beating a game unless the game limits you to that one life imo.

This isn't akin to using a cheat code - it's an option the game offers. If I choose to use it, I'm still playign within the boundaries the game has set.

But seriously now, this argument has come up so many times, and my original comment was meant to be to stop it happening again. It obviously hasnt worked. It's staying on my list because its my list, you can disagree if you like because thats fair enough, you guys see it a different way. It doesn't change the fact you all smell though.
Last edited by alienjesus on Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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