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BogusMeatFactory
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by BogusMeatFactory Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:28 pm

Tanooki wrote:
Exhuminator wrote:Sometimes Nintendo ports do get the short end of the stick. I mean, look at the Wii versions of popular 360/PS3 games for example. But that was totally understandable given the hardware disparity.

There was a recent Nintendo platform port I was disappointed in though. The Mega Man Collection for 3DS. It had serious performance issues with Mega Man V, where other platform ports of the same game did not.

However, I do not hold any belief developers "intentionally" hobble their Nintendo ports. That would be an idiotic practice on multiple levels.


My intentionally hobbled was intended as I said it, Nintendo takes the least priority, gets the least care, so you end up with stuff like the brought up MM5 running badly only on the 3DS and the hardware can handle that game without question. It's just another nitpick, twist, and contort my posts jump on the bandwagon here from my usual fans. It has been overdue for awhile. Stark my conclusions are right, some people just don't appreciate them and that just is fine by me.

Prove to me Nintendo didn't drive away third parties in particular with Wii not being HD and WiiU going basically rogue in design not trying to longer keep parity with the others. By going their own direction a lot of them stopped releasing games on their WiiU hardware, a year later far more bailed (EA, Ubisoft, etc) because they saw no value (profit) in porting more titles. Going it on their own Nintendo created an environment that's unfriendly for others to make games on their systems where they can't see a valued profit to continue to do so.


I agree with everything you say. (・3・)
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Sarge Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:10 pm

Here's the kicker, though: third-parties were already abandoning Nintendo before the Wii. They made a go of it on the Gamecube for a while, but those versions almost always undersold the XBOX and PS2 versions. I also remember developers complaining mightily that they couldn't compete with Nintendo...

...and in some ways, they were right. At this point, many of the people that bought the Gamecube were diehard Nintendo fans. So just like many that buy systems just for their games, third-party stuff got ignored. We saw it on the Wii as well. In many ways, it wasn't really Nintendo that drove them off, it was the lack of people actually purchasing third-party products on Nintendo platforms that did so.

Now, certainly, there were some other factors as well, like Nintendo's reliance on a disc format that didn't store nearly as much data, but it's not like no one has ever seen multi-disc releases before. We still saw it with the 360 and the PS3, and somehow, that didn't end up being the death knell for the 360.

No, really, it was just a continuation of what had happened with the N64, continued with the Gamecube, and culminated with the Wii because, frankly, Nintendo had no choice in the matter. They couldn't do what they did the last generation and survive. They were going to come in last again unless they did something truly disruptive. And it worked, fad or no. And if more Nintendo fans had bought the excellent third-party fare on the Wii (seriously, there was a lot!), we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

The profit was already gone for most third-party devs. Blame the fickle market for that, not Nintendo.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by marurun Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:17 pm

The Wii and the WiiU are evolutionary designs based in part on the original GameCube hardware design. And if you look at the Dreamcast through Xbox (original) generation, the GameCube was pretty even with the Dreamcast in being dev-friendly. The hardware design was straight-forward, focused on extracting best performance from moderate hardware with minimal programming cost. The only thing that's really a pain about Wii and WiiU development is working in weird control schemes for the controllers.

That said, the Wii and WiiU are weaker hardware platforms than their peers, and so you can't just port stuff straight over and expect it to run. So you have to start figuring out which graphical features you can toss to get performance to be reasonable, which may mean messing with the code to hack out bits and redoing art assets, which counter-balances the inherently easy to program architecture. And the PS4 and XBone have pretty similar architectures, meaning concurrent development is actually not that hard (and largely compatible with Windows as well). But the WiiU has a completely different CPU family (PowerPC/Power) and unrelated graphics core, meaning code re-use is not a thing you get to do. So it doesn't matter if coding for it is easy if you still have to redesign your code for a completely different platform.

So, it is messy. Very messy. I still love Nintendo hardware, but I totally see why the WiiU is getting the short end of this particular stick. I'm sad about it, but I can't say I'm very surprised.

I kinda hope the NX is based on an amped-up ARM core with PowerVR-based graphics. If they can get partners to really increase clock speeds and power, they would gain loose compatibility with mobile platforms (similar technologies), meaning 3rd parties that already deal in the mobile space could easily adapt.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Tanooki Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:07 am

arcadifvid wrote:
i always thought they didnt drive 3rd party away; rather consumers just didnt support what was brought out, hence they stopped trying since it wasnt profitable. wii u especially i think had a great initial line up of 3rd party titles. consumers ate up only 1st party titles (with good reason though given the quality).

the only time i think that they drove 3rd party away was during n64 era. forcing 3rd party to pay high price for the carts, bigger carts = more expensive ; and yet the size is dwarfed by a cheaper single cd.


Well you are right about N64. The thing is intended or not, maybe Nintendo honestly just didn't get it, but years of mistakes on the bigger picture drove away a lot of third parties down to partial or just no support (or at least no support on the console, yes on hand held.) The GC you got it with the mini-dvd discs, lots of developers were pissed they couldn't fit as much and cost more per-disc, plus having to compress a large game that loads up a DVD well into a 3GB space over 2 discs didn't help either. The controller was cool but flawed lacking +1 buttons (2 L+R on top) which caused some problems. I know this one first hand, Midway tried to remove strafing your ship in Defender, I went behind their backs and emailed the third party developer they used, created a control scheme for it so the game would play right but you have to select choice C or D in options not A or B or you're kind of dicked later in the game.

The Wii and WiiU are just self explanatory. They stopped trying to keep up, decided that going with a revolutionary concept would save them after how bad the GC sold despite having damn good hardware. They tweak it a good bit, but not enough hardware in it to go HD, they go with motion control. Hardware sales wise, genius it worked, software side, disaster. Check the vg chartz site, how many in the top20 are not Nintendo games, and even then, how many million sold of those top20 (let alone any 3rd party with a known franchise on it) given the over 100M strong hardware base. That drove a heap of people away. WiiU comes up, they tout HD and a cool tablet controller for new style of gaming again. Problem is, tweaked the GC/Wii cores again, gave it a tricky bitch coding language that isn't friendly to port games from PS3/360 stuff without major retooling of the code. Plus they were warned the next step (PS4/One) was what developers wanted, Nintendo stuck to a budget and that controller. The WiiU got some solid 1st year games, some were less so being ports with problems or being outdated (ME3 vs ME Trilogy.) Sales from the Nintendo fans were atrocious across the board, and third parties threw their hands up and said fuck it, Ubisoft being more or less the last to run after Watchdog.

In the end Nintendo and in turn third parties created a support vacuum. Nintendo since the mini-DVD stunt on the GC, then going all in all ages old SD Wii really cemented an entire generation and then another believing you buy Nintendo FOR Nintendo and Nintendo did nothing to compensate or argue against it strongly at all. Third parties gave up more and more putting a fair and square effort into games after the back half of the GC screwing them it's why you saw the Wii play out as it did. All they did was shove out even more stuff to play to the hardware and keep the fans happy aside from a here and there deal like Monster Hunter getting aped. At this point you got B-team franchise games DQ Swords vs a real DQ game, Res Evil rail shooters/ports instead of a new one, Dead Space being a rail shooter--for a time a FPS--then EA makes the dev'r reconvert it back to rail shooter, list goes on. Nintendo pulled the rug out, then the fans did it more, then the third parties packed their shit more and more and kept on leaving.

If the NX is what the stories say, that NintendOS is much like 'FireOS' a tweaked Android setup, that they created a 'micro console' essentially that'll fire up their games, and easily damn near pop 'n drop an Android title, they may have a winner. They can't compete anymore with Sony and MS, they could easily do fine in the other emerging market though. I see third parties smile and return where they can make an Android beefy game like those Shield Exclusives that look/play like PS3 games (and better) and just port it to NintendOS for an added revenue stream. If you make it pennies to the dollar to port a game and not have to worry about a loss depending on contracts/license agreements for a download only or cheap printed media that could open the door once more.

The ongoing rumors for some time now, now since May trying to peg it directly to the NX is that they're going to use the Tegra chip for their next system. This is what the Shield console and tablet use the K1/X1 chip that's quite amazing.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Sarge Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:35 am

I'll say it again, and I believe it to be true: the Wii didn't drive people away. They were already gone. That happened with the Gamecube, despite great hardware, and had started earlier, with the N64. And to some degree, it even started with the SNES. Nintendo got branded as "kiddy" by Sega, and it stuck. Not that their gaming fare wasn't typically all-ages appropriate, but for people that grew up with the NES, there was this sort of expectation that Nintendo would "grow up" with them. Nintendo didn't leave them, they left Nintendo.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Tanooki Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:18 pm

And I'll say I agree, N64 and Cube really were the start, but the Wii was the pivot point that sped things to the current state instead of a slower bleed that had been happening. The others (n64/gc) drove off those who already decided Sony, Sega, MS were cooler in the 90s/00s. The Wii helped piss off the formerly Nintendo loyal but it was masked by all the non-gamers and others into the motion sports, exercise and trivia stuff. WiiU which lacked that stuff and did yet even more to drive off people really made it damn clear how dire things are. Sega did somewhat brand them for kids, but more so just for not being cool and for being slower and the "Nintendont" box pre-SNES and early era on that. Sony is what did the kiddie thing using Sony Media and juicing a lot of fanboys and media types at the same time, developers too. Trifecta of pain that dogs them to date. I'd love nothing more for the rumors and my own thoughts to be right and the NX is a skinned up Android microconsole that'll get them back in the game. I don't want to see a home gaming world without them as aspects of what really drive gaming creativity and fun I think will die with it and collapse more in on itself to whatever is hip at the time with the dudes and hipster types. Nintendo keeps certain types of gaming still relevant I think would slip into back alley indie projects.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Sarge Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:04 pm

I really, really don't understand why the Wii would tick off the Nintendo faithful. Their output on the Wii was far stronger overall than on the Gamecube.

The Wii was certainly a pivot point, but it was a reaction to a market that had already abandoned them. There's a reason Nintendo had to cut the Gamecube hardware to $99. There's a reason that third-party devs jumped ship, and while some is attributable to Nintendo, if the GC had actually been any sort of success, the quibbles with storage space and controllers would have been moot.

I completely agree that I want to see them get back in the game. I think Nintendo realized that the "blue ocean" was the only way they were going to stay relevant. It was a Hail Mary pass, and it worked for the Wii, and it didn't work for the Wii U. Sadly, because despite that system's failure, it has some absolutely fantastic games for it. Whether that takes the form of going into the Android ecosystem, or aligns themselves with the PC-likes on the market, I don't particularly care. I just hope it sells!
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Tanooki Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:59 pm

It fractured it between those accepting and not accepting of the 'waggle' as people liked to get into it about. Sure some games didn't suffer for it like Mario Galaxy, but others the games performed worse than their ports (Twilight Princess.) Also the whole prioritizing non gamers over gamers mantra they took for awhile had a lot of Nintendo life long fans bitching like rabid dogs when they did that line of crap at E3 that year.

By the way got this through a link to a link which is over at tweaktown, but so far supposedly 'confirmed' from people who make games and those who make them for Nintendo this is a set of knowns about the NX which if really are true it nails down the Android box argument.

Everything we know about the Nintendo NX so far:

Reports also say devs can easily port Xbox One and PS4 games to the NX, so it should be flexible

Nintendo NX will launch with a 'full software lineup'

Nintendo says Zelda: Breath of the Wild will be an 'immediate reason' to buy an NX console

Nintendo NX will powered by an NVIDIA Tegra processor, not an AMD chip

The NX is rumored to feature gaming at 900p 60FPS with 4K video support

The NX is rumored to use AMD's new 14nm Polaris GPU

Devs claim the NX is incredibly easy to develop games for

The NX won't have a disc drive, games will be on cartridges

The console will also have a portable Wii U-like controller that allows gaming on-the-go somewhat like a 3DS

The NX will support Frostbite, Unreal Engine 4 and Unity

Nintendo's new console will also interact with smartphones and PCs as well as existing Nintendo hardware like the Wii U and 3DS handheld


I hope this is right, a system with that level of potential thanks to an Nvidia partnership using Tegra tech and the rest of that list it's a beefy little sucker that can get all those android goodies and more. http://www.tweaktown.com/news/52781/nin ... index.html
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by Sarge Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:43 pm

I think that response to Nintendo going after "casuals" shows that many gamers are just whiners. Their hardcore output was just as good as it was on the Gamecube, unless of course you're one of the folks that feels like tech is the king of everything. But if that's the case, why in the world are you a Nintendo fan in the first place? Most Ninty fans are gameplay-over-graphics types.

You might have a good point with the motion controls, but at the same time, it was pretty rare that the controls on the system actually detracted from the experience. I didn't find Twilight to be that bad, and in many ways it controlled better than its GC counterpart.

I know there's really not a whole lot backing up that "900p" statement, it was just from a poll gauging response to such a thing. But it would be consistent with other rumors that it is at least on par with the XB1.

It might make a ton of sense for them to create a Google Play-like storefront, one where Android devs can really go to town on it. It's going to be a pain to sort the good from the bad, but it might also provide some impetus to standardize a bit more in terms of gaming on that platform. I'd certainly like to see more games in the smartphone realm support controllers.

Post-mortems like this are always tricky. I'm sure I'm bringing my own biases into the mix. At the end of the day, they failed in several areas, and I think there's a whole lot of blame to go around. But I've seen splendid products fail terribly just because it was marketed wrong, it didn't catch on with the public, price, or all sorts of other reasons outside of the quality of the product. Just a part of the marketplace, sadly.
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Re: Mighty No. 9 - Keiji Inafune / comcept kicksarter projec

by marurun Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:47 pm

I find it very odd they would go with a Tegra CPU but an AMD GPU. Some of the early news talks about the system having a Tegra Pascal series, but Pascal is the GPU, not the CPU, so that's inherently confusing information.

Maybe the NX will be a fusion of handheld and console, with a traditional AMD console core and a Tegra-powered Shield-like handset that can travel independently. Not sure how they'd work that out, though.
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