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Breetai
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by Breetai Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:20 pm

irixith wrote:The game variety [of the SNES] was not only wider, but more expansive in every genre.

Not true! The SNES was certainly not wider or more expansive in the awesome shoot 'em up genre. That is commonly accepted. I have argued that the best shoot 'em ups on the SNES are better, on the whole, than on the Genesis... but NOT when you add in the Sega CD. Still, the Genesis selection alone is wider in this area. Even graphically, the SNES simply does not match the Genesis here in a lot of cases. It really is a case of Blast Processing, or, in reality, the faster CPU in the Genesis seems to have helped companies create shoot em ups with very little or no slowdown. It took developers a few years to work out the speed problem of the SNES when making games that require it, such as shoot em ups. The Genesis also has more capability for background layers than the SNES, which come across nicely in this genre (also in platformers to a lesser degree). The sound chip in the Genesis also produced a much cooler rock-type sound, which the SNES is not capable of. Yeah, voice sampling on the Genesis does suck... a lot. It is a matter of taste here, although the SNES produced a wonder orchestra sound that the Genesis could never come close to.

This is also debatable that the Genesis better represented the sports genre. Compare the EA NHL games. The SNES ones are incredibly choppy when compared to the Genesis.

Just my opinion of course, but the Genesis can't possibly hold a candle to the SNES. It can be preferred over the SNES, but there's simply no objective proof that would ever deem it better.

I just gave some. Overall, I do choose the SNES, but when looking at shoot 'em ups, the Genesis does have a hardware edge.
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by irixith Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:54 pm

^ At my fellow Canadian. :p

I ignored the 32X/SegaCD when I look at the SNES vs Genesis argument. The SegaCD really started wiping the floor in its time, but you know Sega and their history of wonderful decisions regarding their hardware products. :\ It did have an extra CPU and extra graphics processing power, so it's not really fair to compare it to the SNES.

When you start pulling out games like Final Fight CD, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Lunar: The Silver Star, MegaRace, Mickey Mania, Popful Mail, Shining Force, Sonic CD, etc etc -- they compare to the best the SNES has to offer *gameplay* wise, but technically they are far superior because of the hardware boost the Genesis got with the Sega CD attached to it.

I would agree with you that the bare Genesis is well represented in shmups and sports games, but overall I would still say the SNES has a wider variety of *all* genres. Unless the only genres you liked was shmups and sports! :p
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by benderx Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Sega Genesis had Lunar sega cd, snatcher, the justifer games. Vectorman, sonic, ghostbusters, ghouls n ghosts, mortal kombat, earthworm jim, castlevania, golden axe, Shining Force, Phastasy Star, Crusader of Centy shinobi, Gunstar Heroes, Rocket Knight Adventures, and STREETS OF RAGE!!!

Im wondering why square or enix games weren't on Genesis console, was it nintendo exclusive rules.
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by flamepanther Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:23 pm

Breetai wrote:It really is a case of Blast Processing, or, in reality, the faster CPU in the Genesis seems to have helped companies create shoot em ups with very little or no slowdown. It took developers a few years to work out the speed problem of the SNES when making games that require it, such as shoot em ups.
There would be less of this perception if it weren't for some poor decisions made by Konami early on. The famously bad slowdown in games like Gradius III are due to Konami being cheap and opting for cheaper SloROM cartridges instead of the pricier but much better FastROM cartridges. There was a hardware edge, but not nearly as big as it seems like due to this.
The sound chip in the Genesis also produced a much cooler rock-type sound, which the SNES is not capable of. Yeah, voice sampling on the Genesis does suck... a lot. It is a matter of taste here, although the SNES produced a wonder orchestra sound that the Genesis could never come close to.
Comparing the largely "rock" soundtrack between versions of Street Fighter, I'm not sure if I can entirely agree.
irixith wrote:I ignored the 32X/SegaCD when I look at the SNES vs Genesis argument. The SegaCD really started wiping the floor in its time, but you know Sega and their history of wonderful decisions regarding their hardware products. :\ It did have an extra CPU and extra graphics processing power, so it's not really fair to compare it to the SNES.

When you start pulling out games like Final Fight CD, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Lunar: The Silver Star, MegaRace, Mickey Mania, Popful Mail, Shining Force, Sonic CD, etc etc -- they compare to the best the SNES has to offer *gameplay* wise, but technically they are far superior because of the hardware boost the Genesis got with the Sega CD attached to it.
I'm not sure entirely how unfair it is. The SNES had its share of 32-bit co-processing. It was just done on a per-game basis with no expensive (external) add-ons. Besides the obvious FX and FX2 games, Capcom also put out some games that showed of some killer hardware-enhanced tricks (MegaMan X 2 and 3, Streer Fighter Alpha 2). I think the Sega CD gets more help from the increased storage capacity and redbook audio than it does from the extra graphics and processing power. Games like Final Fight CD still ended up with dull, muddy colors.
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by Limewater Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:40 pm

flamepanther wrote:The SNES had its share of 32-bit co-processing.


Nit: I'm not sure this is quite true. I don't know about Capcom's chip, but the FX chip did not have any 32-bit registers of which I am aware.
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Breetai
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by Breetai Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:16 pm

irixith wrote:^ At my fellow Canadian. :p

I ignored the 32X/SegaCD when I look at the SNES vs Genesis argument. The SegaCD really started wiping the floor in its time, but you know Sega and their history of wonderful decisions regarding their hardware products. :\ It did have an extra CPU and extra graphics processing power, so it's not really fair to compare it to the SNES.

Yeah, but it still had less colour! Well, with tricks some games did break the 64 and even the 128 colour barriers! I think Eternal Champions was up around 192 colours or so. I don't think the Sega CD could do transparencies, either. One thing I forgot to mention in the last post was that the Genesis can run at a higher resolution than the SNES. ;) It also relies on the Genesis for sound effects, so it does suffer somewhat audiowise in a way.

Other than colour thing, the Sega CD does beat the SNES from a technical standpoint to the best of my knowledge.

When you start pulling out games like Final Fight CD, Lunar: Eternal Blue, Lunar: The Silver Star, MegaRace, Mickey Mania, Popful Mail, Shining Force, Sonic CD, etc etc -- they compare to the best the SNES has to offer *gameplay* wise, but technically they are far superior because of the hardware boost the Genesis got with the Sega CD attached to it.

MegaRace? Really? haha. I don't think gameplay is the best word to use here. Sonic 1 has great "gameplay". River Raid on the 2600 has great gameplay. Donkey Kong on the Colecovision has great gameplay. Etc.

I do think it's fair to put the Sega CD into the argument. Likewise, I can't think of anyone who would leave the CD add-on out if they were arguing for the Turbografx/PC Engine. I wouldn't put any of those games you listed as being far superior to the top SNES games. Lunar is great, but most people would still pick FFIII or Chrono Trigger over it. Sonic CD didn't display anything that the SNES couldn't do, other than CD sound. In fact, NONE of those games did other than Slilpheed if you don't count the animation cut-scenes. The Sega CD is not a stand-alone unit. It is a tool to enhance the Genesis. Isn't that what the SuperFX chip does? It is not part of the base SNES, but the games that take advantage of it sure do things far beyond what the SNES is capable of. The only difference is the distribution method.

I would agree with you that the bare Genesis is well represented in shmups and sports games, but overall I would still say the SNES has a wider variety of *all* genres. Unless the only genres you liked was shmups and sports! :p

Two of my favourite genres are shmups and sports. :D Also racing and platformers, which the Genesis also does well in (the SNES has the edge in racing I think, just because of Mario Kart and F-Zero. Platformers... well, the SNES wins IMO). My other favourite genre is RPGs, which the Genesis is just adequate in.

Either way, I still slightly prefer the SNES... slightly. It's a difference of a $#%% hair or two!

benderx wrote:Sega Genesis had Lunar sega cd, snatcher, the justifer games. Vectorman, sonic, ghostbusters, ghouls n ghosts, mortal kombat, earthworm jim, castlevania, golden axe, Shining Force, Phastasy Star, Crusader of Centy shinobi, Gunstar Heroes, Rocket Knight Adventures, and STREETS OF RAGE!!!

Im wondering why square or enix games weren't on Genesis console, was it nintendo exclusive rules.


WTF? A ton of the games you mentioned are WELL represented on the SNES!!! The Konami lightgun games are on the SNES. Ghouls 'n Ghosts has an AWESOME sequel on the SNES. Mortal Kombat is GREAT on it, except for the lack of blood (does it really matter anymore?). Earthworm Jim is great on the SNES (but not necessarily better or quite as good, but it is still great overall). Castlevania has TWO amazing games on the SNES, compared to one on the Genesis. Rocket Knight is on the SNES and is very good. Streets of Rage is on the Genesis, but Final Fight 2 and 3 are not and they are equal matches to be honest (play them, then play SoR 2 and 3. They really do match up well.). I really am not sure why you used a lot of those choices. :roll:

Square and Enix games weren't on it partly, I'm sure, because the Mega Drive sold like crap in Japan, which is their home market. A better question is why they weren't on the PC Engine.
Last edited by Breetai on Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by Breetai Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:33 pm

flamepanther wrote:There would be less of this perception if it weren't for some poor decisions made by Konami early on. The famously bad slowdown in games like Gradius III are due to Konami being cheap and opting for cheaper SloROM cartridges instead of the pricier but much better FastROM cartridges. There was a hardware edge, but not nearly as big as it seems like due to this.

I was thinking a bit of Gradius III and Super R-Type, but also largely of Thunder Spirits. Compare it with Thunder Force III. The SNES just... sucks. Yes, it is also an earlier game. If I think of later examples... haha, I can't think of any to be honest! The developers seem to have had the SNES figured out by then. The slower CPU in the SNES wasn't as much of a factor once the developers had figured out how to properly use what they had take advantage of special chips. Still, you don't see that slowdown in early Genesis games like you do in early SNES games. I'm not disagreeing with you here at all, just expanding a bit.


flamepanther wrote:Comparing the largely "rock" soundtrack between versions of Street Fighter, I'm not sure if I can entirely agree.

The Genesis soundtrack is actually closer to the arcade version, but anyway... compare Thunder Force III to Thunder Spirits. :D Does anything similar sounding to Thunder Force IV compare on the SNES? When developers played to the Genesis' strengths, it did sound very nice. Not saying that it matches the SNES overall, because it really doesn't, but just that it can do a few things well that the SNES does not.

Glad we agree on the Sega CD issue, as I hit on above in a similar way that you did. Even Pilotwings, released very shortly after the Super Famicom came out, used a custom chip. The bit N was cheating right from the starting block! :mrgreen:
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by benderx Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:23 pm

Breetai wrote:
irixith wrote:^ At my fellow Canadian. :p



benderx wrote:Sega Genesis had Lunar sega cd, snatcher, the justifer games. Vectorman, sonic, ghostbusters, ghouls n ghosts, mortal kombat, earthworm jim, castlevania, golden axe, Shining Force, Phastasy Star, Crusader of Centy shinobi, Gunstar Heroes, Rocket Knight Adventures, and STREETS OF RAGE!!!

Im wondering why square or enix games weren't on Genesis console, was it nintendo exclusive rules.


WTF? A ton of the games you mentioned are WELL represented on the SNES!!! The Konami lightgun games are on the SNES. Ghouls 'n Ghosts has an AWESOME sequel on the SNES. Mortal Kombat is GREAT on it, except for the lack of blood (does it really matter anymore?). Earthworm Jim is great on the SNES (but not necessarily better or quite as good, but it is still great overall). Castlevania has TWO amazing games on the SNES, compared to one on the Genesis. Rocket Knight is on the SNES and is very good. Streets of Rage is on the Genesis, but Final Fight 2 and 3 are not and they are equal matches to be honest (play them, then play SoR 2 and 3. They really do match up well.). I really am not sure why you used a lot of those choices. :roll:

Square and Enix games weren't on it partly, I'm sure, because the Mega Drive sold like crap in Japan, which is their home market. A better question is why they weren't on the PC Engine.



HOLD UP Rocket Knight was never released on SNES. WTF Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventures 2 was the only game that got ported from series. Mega Drive sold well. Final Fight part 1 arcade/snes was too short.

Final Fight also came out for SEGA CD and it was best version compared to snes.

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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by flamepanther Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:28 pm

Limewater wrote:Nit: I'm not sure this is quite true. I don't know about Capcom's chip, but the FX chip did not have any 32-bit registers of which I am aware.
<researches> You appear to be correct. The point still stands that it's a co-processor that was used to augment the system's normal abilities.
Breetai wrote:I was thinking a bit of Gradius III and Super R-Type, but also largely of Thunder Spirits. Compare it with Thunder Force III. The SNES just... sucks.
I think Thunder Spirits is just a bad port overall. There were plenty of early games that were better in every possible way.
Yes, it is also an earlier game. If I think of later examples... haha, I can't think of any to be honest! The developers seem to have had the SNES figured out by then. The slower CPU in the SNES wasn't as much of a factor once the developers had figured out how to properly use what they had take advantage of special chips.
You've played R-Type III, right? There's no special chip in that. That's all just the SNES doing it.
Still, you don't see that slowdown in early Genesis games like you do in early SNES games. I'm not disagreeing with you here at all, just expanding a bit.
Well, the original Sonic The Hedgehog slows down on occasion, actually ;)


The Genesis soundtrack is actually closer to the arcade version, but anyway...
Street Fighter II Turbo is closer to the arcade soundtrack on the Genesis, yes, but I always liked it better on the SNES--less tin, more texture. Anyway, once you get to Super Street Fighter II, the SNES version is closer to the arcade. Capcom had stopped using the FM synthesis and upgraded to wavetable by then.

Breetai wrote:Rocket Knight is on the SNES and is very good.

benderx wrote:HOLD UP Rocket Knight was never released on SNES. WTF Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventures 2 was the only game that got ported from series.

Both just a little bit off. Neither of the Genesis games in that series were ported to the SNES. The "Sparkster" game on the SNES is an all-new game, not an adaptation of Sparkster: Rocket Knight Adventures 2. It is awesome though, and very fast.

benderx, it looks like you have a new Sparkster game to go try out :)

Final Fight also came out for SEGA CD and it was best version compared to snes.
Mostly true. The SEGA CD version surpassed the SNES version in almost every way. On the other hand, the color depth was noticeably lower, looking flat and washed-out in comparison. I'd say the Sega CD version still wins out by a long shot, but that still makes at least one way the SNES version is better... and the music was only better on account of the pre-recorded CD audio, not the Genesis music synthesizer. Considering how much better Final Fight 2 and 3 were, I think the SNES version of part 1 was obviously just a bad, rushed port job that didn't take advantage of the console. The Sega CD version is just the opposite--a great porting effort that was limited by the constraints of the target hardware.
Last edited by flamepanther on Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sega Geneses vs. SNES!?

by Breetai Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:33 pm

benderx wrote:HOLD UP Rocket Knight was never released on SNES.

You are correct. I did make an error.

Mega Drive sold well.

In Japan. No, it really did not. It was far behind the SNES and PC Engine (Turbografx-16). It was the foreign markets, from Sega of Japan's perspective, that kept it going.

Final Fight part 1 arcade/snes was too short.

Final Fight also came out for SEGA CD and it was best version compared to snes.

That is no secret. That is why I compared Final Fight 2/3 to SoR 2/3. Did you miss that?
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