I want Shenmue III

[marurun]

Rather, what I mean is, in light of everything Suzuki shared in advance of Shenmue III, the idea that it would wrap the central story is not contained in his promotional content. Meaning the desire to have things wrap, while not at all unreasonable, is externally imposed, and not found anywhere in published material about the project. It's reasonable to want that outcome, but not to assume it would be the case given the context.

Being an auteur project doesn't make it immune to criticism, but it does mean that you can't go in with all the standard expectations you might from some more mainstream title or series entry. If fans want Shenmue III for the same reasons they wanted I and II they would have to accept the likelihood of the game not being profitable and being a slow storytelling experience.

[Reprise]

But okay, we give Suzuki the benefit of the doubt, how much leeway does he get to complete his vision? Wasn't his original concept for something along the lines of 12-15 chapters running potentially what, 9 games?

It's 11 chapters within 4-5 games I believe. I might have this wrong, but I believe Suzuki either explicitly stated or at least implied the Lan Di arc would come to a close by the end of Shenmue IV. I seem to remember he has a dynamic plan that would allow him to conclude the game either with 4 games, or 5 games if he was given the opportunity to do so.

The whole story has already been written and novelised. Each game's script is then created from the novelisation.

This is what he has been saying for at least a decade if not longer and this is the compromised version, I believe. I seem to remember the original plan being 16 chapters across roughly 6 games, unless those were just mistranslations and/or misquotes. I suspect, given the mixed reception to Shenmue 3 and the lackluster sales, Yu would put in place the plans he had to wrap it up with a Shenmue 4 if he feels 5 games would be stretching too far. Then again, even elements of Shenmue 3's story ended up having to be cut (which led to a rushed ending), so who knows?

[pierrot]

I feel like I recall Yu saying within the last few years that those early characterizations of the number of chapters and how they would fit into installments were not really accurate, but I can't remember where that would have been. It might actually be 12 to 15 chapters. Theoretically, if 3 is consistent with the previous games, Shenmue IV would already be starting with Chapter 9. That's accounting for the boat between Bailu and Choubu, which I'm pretty sure was supposed to be the DLC scenario, and the cut chapter on the boat from Hong Kong. (I was actually listening to a panel interview Yu did the other day where they were talking about that cut chapter, and how it was supposed to originally have decisions that would change the story progression in later chapters. Crazy to think about. Also, he suggested that the scenario could still be used in the future.) So that would potentially make for two more games, at three chapters a piece.


How much leeway does Yu deserve with this project? Honestly? All of it. You'd have a hard time convincing me that there are many, if any, more influential/legendary game designers in the history of video games. It's why Sega still knows that they owe him in some way for his service. He really did everything he could to tailor make Shenmue III to the fans' desires, even to the critical detriment of the game by including the schlocky English dub--and would have had the double-whammy of eating heavily into resources, as well. He addressed in recent months why Shenmue III wasn't the conclusion of the series, and the simple answer was that it wouldn't have been fun. Shenmue III is fun. Maybe not for everyone, obviously, but for fans of the series, at least, it's a no-brainer. From what I've played of the game, the criticism that the story isn't advanced much in this installment is fair, but it seems really shortsighted and entitled to say that, 'It didn't end the way I wanted it to, so it's not worth having any fun with, or supporting in any way.' I'm sorry, I just don't understand where this comes from. I spent about 20 minutes close to ugly crying last night while hanging out in the 'Save Shenmue' temple. I remember when people said they would take anything that continued the story, and now there are apparently vocal "fans" trying to make it known that they were lying about all that, and supposedly it makes Yu a terrible person for not taking into account how fickle they would be.


On the topic of sales, what metric are people using to assess this? To my knowledge, there's no indication of what sort of sales numbers either YSNet, or Deep Silver were targeting. There also doesn't appear to be any solid numbers, and only unclear, relative, rankings, but based on what data for even tracking it? It's probably clear that Shenmue III isn't outselling blockbuster AAA titles, but was that even the goal? I sincerely doubt it. Even assuming that the initial sales figures aren't as good as even the HD remasters of the first two games, they'd probably be at a level where Yu, or someone in his camp, could (should) make the pitch to Sega that there's a built in install base, and with some help from them on the devtools/workflow, and marketing side of things (which Deep Silver appears to have provided very little of) there's potential for better profit margins in future installments. Whether or not Sega's investors would go for it is probably the biggest hurdle on that front.

I don't know. No one's obligated to buy it, but don't try to tell me it's not a good game based on some snarky comments from internet trolls, and/or watching the last couple minutes of it out of context.

[PartridgeSenpai]

I know that I've seen that Shenmue 3 sold a little under 18k units on PS4 in its first week in Japan (around 1000 less than the remasters of 1&2 did their first week), and it also is #17 best selling game in the UK its first week. Like Pierrot say though, it's difficult to say just how well its doing without larger international sales figures or even what the internal sales projections were. The most worrying thing to me in regards to its sales would be that the game is still, as of time of writing, discounted to $37 on US Amazon. That kind of semi-permanent discount so soon after release isn't usually the case for AAA games selling well

On a semi-related note, I hope the remasters stay on Game Pass for a while longer. That way I'll have easy access to 'em if I end up really liking 3~

[Reprise]

How much leeway does Yu deserve with this project? Honestly? All of it. You'd have a hard time convincing me that there are many, if any, more influential/legendary game designers in the history of video games. It's why Sega still knows that they owe him in some way for his service. He really did everything he could to tailor make Shenmue III to the fans' desires, even to the critical detriment of the game by including the schlocky English dub--and would have had the double-whammy of eating heavily into resources, as well. He addressed in recent months why Shenmue III wasn't the conclusion of the series, and the simple answer was that it wouldn't have been fun. Shenmue III is fun. Maybe not for everyone, obviously, but for fans of the series, at least, it's a no-brainer. From what I've played of the game, the criticism that the story isn't advanced much in this installment is fair, but it seems really shortsighted and entitled to say that, 'It didn't end the way I wanted it to, so it's not worth having any fun with, or supporting in any way.' I'm sorry, I just don't understand where this comes from. I spent about 20 minutes close to ugly crying last night while hanging out in the 'Save Shenmue' temple. I remember when people said they would take anything that continued the story, and now there are apparently vocal "fans" trying to make it known that they were lying about all that, and supposedly it makes Yu a terrible person for not taking into account how fickle they would be.

This is completely how I feel too. The English dub is an interesting one, as this time it was done by a professional director and decent, established, professional voice actors. It's an intentional design choice and some people get it and others don't.

As for Shenmue being about the journey, that's not me just making up a cop out. It's really how I feel. Shenmue is about feeding a kitten with a poorly leg and watching it grow and its leg eventually heal. Shenmue is about the larger than life characters you meet on your journey. Shenmue is about conversing with Fangmei, learning about her Birthday and buying her the perfect present. Shenmue 3 is about the mysteries surrounding the mirrors. Shenmue is about lots of things to me.

I do want a conclusion, but not at the cost of the overall story.

Yu Suzuki has always maintained that the game could not conclude with 3. It's a matter of public record, the interviews are out there, and they're all consistent right up until the Kickstarter launched in 2015. The closest he came to exploring the idea was an interview from 2010 I think in relation to Shenmue City (cancelled mobile game). If I remember rightly, he said he had an idea for Shenmue 3 that could conclude the story, but it would require a very concise A to B, B to C linear experience that would rush through the main story points. He seemed to have explored it as an option and rejected it as not feasible and not something fans would enjoy.

[Sload Soap]

While it boggles my mind, fair's fair if Yu Suzuki always made it clear he wouldn't be wrapping it up and people still backed it then they got what they wanted for better or worse. It just seems to me like nothing was learnt and Shenmue is back in limbo insofar as its future prospects.

[Reprise]

Off topic, but Deep Silver dropped another new trailer today. Kinda weird, since the game's out now, but perhaps it's a good sign that they're continuing to promote the game and aren't going silent on the game or franchise. It's a nice "thank you" trailer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb ... 6_FJ-vDIlQ

While it boggles my mind, fair's fair if Yu Suzuki always made it clear he wouldn't be wrapping it up and people still backed it then they got what they wanted for better or worse. It just seems to me like nothing was learnt and Shenmue is back in limbo insofar as its future prospects.

I have been quite critical about some elements of the story and particularly the pacing, but yeah, the game not wrapping up the story isn't one of my criticisms personally. Hopefully we do get a Shenmue 4 though. It is risky and Yu Suzuki is quite stubborn.

[pierrot]

The most worrying thing to me in regards to its sales would be that the game is still, as of time of writing, discounted to $37 on US Amazon. That kind of semi-permanent discount so soon after release isn't usually the case for AAA games selling well

True, that wouldn't be good for a AAA title, but Shenmue III isn't exactly AAA, either. Yu pegged the development costs at about $12 million, and at least $5 million of that would have been covered by crowdfunding. The details aren't clear, but Deep Silver potentially recouped their investment with the Epic Games exclusivity deal. In some ways, I feel like they're almost playing with house money. I don't think Yu wants Shenmue III to be totally underwhelming, in terms of sales, but most of what I've read in interviews appears to indicate that he's not really fussed about the sales, and really only cares whether or not fans are still on board with the franchise. That's the part that scares me. It could just be the vacuous, sink-pit of the internet at play, but it can appear at times that fans might be jumping ship for no real reason. Some of that was bound to happen when people lose perspective over the course of 18 years, but I feel like it gets amplified by the state of this modern internet.

This is completely how I feel too. The English dub is an interesting one, as this time it was done by a professional director and decent, established, professional voice actors. It's an intentional design choice and some people get it and others don't.

Honestly, the Japanese audio isn't even the greatest: It's pretty apparent that there's this single guy who does the voices for what has to be 40% of the male cast, including Fuku-san; Matsukaze reprises Ryo in a similar way that Marshall does, even though he wasn't that bad in the first two games to begin with; Shenhua sounds a little like she's mocking Ryo, because she often talks in a similar way, very unlike how her dialogue was in the second game. A lot of the NPCs are more straight-up, and decently voiced, even though it's still apparent that they're more amateur talent, and Ren really steals the show, vocally, though. Either way, if the English audio weren't so horrendous, I think it would at least help stave off a lot of the poor impressions early on. I'm convinced that 90% of the poor reactions to the Shenmue games are caused by the ridiculous English voice acting.

If I remember rightly, he said he had an idea for Shenmue 3 that could conclude the story, but it would require a very concise A to B, B to C linear experience that would rush through the main story points. He seemed to have explored it as an option and rejected it as not feasible and not something fans would enjoy.

I think that's pretty much the idea that he was recently suggesting wouldn't be fun, if he had tried to finish everything in this one game.

I would like to see the conclusion of the story at some point, but the big thing for me is, I'd really just like for a lot of those ideas he had for this game to make it into a future game (ie. castle sieges, NPC affinities, and it seemed like training under kenpo masters mas going to be more of a focus). I've grown patient, so I honestly don't care how long it takes to get to the end of the series.


At any rate, I was reading this post-launch interview by Famitsu last week. It was a pretty great read. The thing that really jumped out at me was Yu saying that he really didn't want anyone playing Shenmue III if they didn't have time to really sit down and invest in it. That it's really not made for busy people with too much going on in their lives. I can really see that reflected in the game's design. I've apparently (according the GOG Galaxy 2.0 beta) put almost 90 hours into the game so far, and I'm not even all that close to the end--. It's a design philosophy that's really at odds with modern culture, but I feel like it would be a pretty good lesson for the world, which most will reject out of hand anyway.

The other thing that caught my attention was just how involved Yu apparently was in the script, and dialogue. According to the interview, he wrote all of the main dialogue, the story segments, what seems to be the Shenhua conversations, and basically anything else that came up, or that others were falling behind on. I'm kind of surprised that he mentioned a lot of the delays to release were spent working on adding to the story with more 'emotionally moving' events--. I'm not sure exactly where those are, but it seems to be somewhere in Choubu, considering the reaction of the interviewer (who had only played up to the beginning of that area by the time of the interview) to Yu's spoilers.

It was also kind of interesting hearing about his reasoning for adding the face janken. Apparently he just wanted to add in some sort of game that really felt like something people would do in an extra rural area in the late 80s. He was only really hoping for it to add to the enjoyment of the game for one in ten players. It did that for me, at least.

[Reprise]

I failed to mention it here, but I actually finished Shenmue 3 at the weekend. Overall, I am more than happy with my experience. Like most fans, I have some gripes with parts of the story and the pacing. I know of some very small and minor things I would have done with the story, that wouldn't even be difficult to do, but would really enrichen the story and pacing overall. Obviously I'm not going to share any spoilers though. If anyone else has finished it and wants to discuss, we can do spoiler tags.

That said, I took my time, I explored every nook and cranny and there is so much about the game I really loved. It was kind depressing to see some of the really hardcore fans who know literally every last detail of Shenmue being quite critical of the story. Man, some people pick up on things and plot holes I didn't even notice or if I did, they don't really bother me. I have my issues, but overall I enjoyed the adventure. You can just tell the third area (Baisha) was cut and the ending was fairly rushed. Bailu village was great, Niaowu was mixed and overall a bit underwhelming due to how it transitions towards the end sequence seemingly out of nowhere.

I'm kind of surprised that he mentioned a lot of the delays to release were spent working on adding to the story with more 'emotionally moving' events--. I'm not sure exactly where those are, but it seems to be somewhere in Choubu, considering the reaction of the interviewer (who had only played up to the beginning of that area by the time of the interview) to Yu's spoilers.

Really? I didn't notice that in Choubu... I wonder what he's referring to. Maybe it sounds more impactful than it actually comes across in the game. I loved the idea of what happens in the final hour or two, but the execution was flawed.

[Sload Soap]

I'm up to Niaowu and it's all very Shenmue so far which is what you want. I have a few criticisms outside of my aforementioned problems with the story (that extends across all the Shenmue games tbf).

Obviously the voice acting is bad but we assume that's deliberate, although Shenhua sounds like one of those Gamerpoop videos where they cut up preexisting voice lines to make new dialogue. It had the effect of making her sound a bit cretinous. I mean, in reality she would be having no formal education and all but still.

I have a bit on an issue with the overall quality of the sound mix. The music is lovely but the way it fades between areas in Bailu can lead to some abrupt changes between tracks. This is really noticeable in the paddy field by Panda market as it can flick between steps depending where you are. You also have songs that just play through, stop, have a few seconds of dead air then restart. That and the incidental sound effects are very plug-in. That's a more minor criticism though.

I don't like how some sidequests seem to end if you talk to the questgiver without the relevant item to hand. That's basic gaming stuff really and wasn't present even in Shenmue's 1 or 2. Weird.

Mr Tao is the second most evil capitalist shop-keeper in gaming after Tom Nook. Chop his wood so he pay you a pittance so buy garlic off him so you can go on living. The loop is closed. I would dob him in to the local Communist party official but Bailu seems to be stuck in the 1910's.

Anyway it's really good all round but I probably have a long and boring rant about the story and why Yu Suzuki is not and never has been a good writer in me.