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Ivo
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by Ivo Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:56 am

Like Dunpeal says, he game is super-rigid only if you are really trying to go for perfect chains. I'm not sure that is so different from other shmups if you are trying to go for superplays - Ikaruga is just very obvious and clear about it, which is an advantage but seems to be rubbing several people here the wrong way?
The game isn't outright telling you "You suck" or "you are doing it wrong", it is just clearly telling you "there is a better way if you want to score big". I mean, you can even go the whole game without shooting!

If you are not play for score you can either entirely forget the combo system or do it whenever you feel like comboing.
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noiseredux
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by noiseredux Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:03 am

I wouldn't say Ikaruga rubs me the wrong way. But I think even survival is more memorization than sonething more reactionary like DDP. Look at stage 2 for survival alone. But again, I'm not hating. It's way more fun than RS, and I have been playing almost everyday and continually posting improved scores, so...
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by dunpeal2064 Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:50 am

Its certainly harder than Dodonpachi for survival, but I find Dodonpachi's vast difference between survival and scoring to be a flaw. Most people will just clear the game's first loop (which is very, very easy if that's all you are trying to do), and go "yay I beat Dodonpachi, never tried chaining really but I assume I'd hate it because I can beat this game but I can't chain at all"

With Ikaruga, survival is a bit tough, but learning it puts you fairly close to scoring, or at least knowing what steps you need to take to put more points into your run. I think it has a nice difference between survival and score, something a lot of shmups ignore now.

I know you aren't hating on it or anything, but I just feel like the game gets a lot of sauce for its approach, where really all it does is show you that you aren't playing the game optimally, something you would have to study guides and watch replays to realize in most Cave/Raizing shootems.
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by mjmjr25 Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:34 am

Ivo wrote: I mean, you can even go the whole game without shooting!


You can? There are multiple points on stage 2 where you must shoot physical barriers or you'll crash into them and die?
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by mjmjr25 Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:43 am

dunpeal2064 wrote:With Ikaruga, survival is a bit tough, but learning it puts you fairly close to scoring


I disagree entirely. Scoring and survival seem completely at odds in this one - though I think that's a good thing!

If playing for score - you often are allowing more bullets to enter the screen, allowing more enemies to get closer to you, waiting on things to align for the right time to take them out in the appropriate order.

When you do clear chains "the right way" it creates ADDITIONAL enemy patterns that you otherwise wouldn't see.

When fighting bosses, being the opposite color of the bullet patterns inflicts more damage on the boss (creating a faster kill and much higher boss kill bonus).

All 3 of these things significantly increase your risk of dying.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all - I like it, but playing for score vs. survival are anathema to each other, much more so than most games.

In many games when you score well - it creates chain reactions that clear a screen, or gives you a hyper bonus, or creates power ups, etc. Outside of the extend, playing for score while trying to also clear is a hindrance, not a help.

AND DoDonPachi is very, very easy? Dunno about that - maybe in contrast to Akai Katana, Pink Sweets or Ibara, but not in contrast to most shmups imo. I've cleared 4 CAVE games and this isn't one of them - last stage, but no clear. I think only you (Chaz) cleared it for TR last year.
Ivo
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by Ivo Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:01 pm

mjmjr25 wrote:
Ivo wrote: I mean, you can even go the whole game without shooting!


You can? There are multiple points on stage 2 where you must shoot physical barriers or you'll crash into them and die?


You can pass through them. If you want you can have a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGcfuFkNCfM
(although the player does die in that run)
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by mjmjr25 Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:12 pm

Interesting - seems a very tight line - not something i'd want to try, but still quite interesting.
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Omerta
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by Omerta Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:40 pm

I think I'll buy Ikaruga on 360 so I can unlock "Ikaruga mode" and make RS that much more versatile.
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Ivo
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by Ivo Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:30 pm

mjmjr25 wrote:Interesting - seems a very tight line - not something i'd want to try, but still quite interesting.


You should finish the game on a non-scoring run, even if you have to credit feed. I think it is worth it.
It is sort of beautiful, actually.
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Together Retro: Ikaruga

by dunpeal2064 Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:10 am

I'll clarify what I meant:

In Ikaruga, the player is actually required to learn the game to survive. No, you aren't learning the game optimally, but you are actually forced to become familiar with just about every enemy, their placement, suicide bullets, etc. No, you won't just clear and hop into an optimal run, but you will have learned quite a bit about the game by the time you clear it, to the point that scoring in the game won't seem as far removed, difficulty-wise.

Take Dodonpachi. You get... 34 bombs, or something like that? You don't have to score to reach the score extends, the fixed extend is cake to get. If your only goal is to clear the game (aka cheese a 1cc), you can do this without learning anything, anything at all about stages 5 and 6. You can just bomb anything even slightly daunting, and still have enough resources to loop the game. I would say that, yes, Dodonpachi's first 3-4 stages are indeed very easy, and considering you can practically cancel out the last 2 stages, it just.... it doesn't create a familiarity. You don't have any options like this in a "cheese 1cc" of Ikaruga.

To the point of my Dodonpachi clear.... you realize I was playing for score right? :wink:
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