Discussion of scanning, archiving, and printing things such as magazines, manuals, video captures, and game covers
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Inazuma
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the Future of Gaming

by Inazuma Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:50 am

I buy and support the games I like. I hate games that fuck me over with bullshit like DRM, and downloads that have tons of restrictions. I simply won't buy them.

The more copy protection a game has, the less likely I am to purchase it. The future of gaming is very bleak for me because of this.

When will these idiotic game companies stop fucking over their paying customers? Here I am, trying to give them money so I can play some new games and they have to go and dump a bucket of shit (horrible copy protection methods) all over the game, making me change my mind about buying it.

Music successfully made the transition from CDs to restriction free digital downloads. How come video games can't do the same?
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dsheinem
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the Future of Gaming

by dsheinem Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:51 am

Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:
jfe2 wrote:IIRC some new games require a DLC to unlock the multiplayer portions. I love DLC if its created after a game has been put to market, but it seems like the unlockable DLC is just being done to test the water for future digital only releases.

No, you're wrong.

There are one time only needed access cards you have to buy to access to get online for multiplayer on USED games NOT NEW. This basically encourages people to buy new instead of used.


No, you're wrong. Madden 11 has this too, and I think there may be at least one more. More are certainly coming.

:mrgreen:
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Mod_Man_Extreme
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the Future of Gaming

by Mod_Man_Extreme Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:39 am

dsheinem wrote:
Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:
jfe2 wrote:IIRC some new games require a DLC to unlock the multiplayer portions. I love DLC if its created after a game has been put to market, but it seems like the unlockable DLC is just being done to test the water for future digital only releases.

No, you're wrong.

There are one time only needed access cards you have to buy to access to get online for multiplayer on USED games NOT NEW. This basically encourages people to buy new instead of used.


No, you're wrong. Madden 11 has this too, and I think there may be at least one more. More are certainly coming.

:mrgreen:

EA and Ubi games have it and as far as I've seen my store never got any cards in other than the Tiger and UFC ones.
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by CRTGAMER Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:36 pm

Thanks to d123456 for pointing this out.

This puts a real time ring on what is happening in the DRM market. Purchased support gone on this DRM game. A state of things to come, remember when Amazon Kindle deleted some purchased downloads? Through console updates, maybe older DRMs may get disabled as licenses expire?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3091 ... LA_PSN.php

End Of Ferrari Deal Pulls Sega's OutRun Online Arcade From XBLA, PSN

The expiration of a licensing deal with Ferrari has led Sega to remove OutRun Online Arcade from the PlayStation Network, with the Xbox Live Arcade version to be removed from the service in December 2011. The PSN removal tracks closely with the release of System 3's release of Eutechnyx-developed Ferrari: The Race Experience on the European PSN last week, ahead of a planned November release on the Wii.

Those that have already downloaded the game will still be able to play it, though it's unclear whether existing owners will be able to re-download their purchase after the removal.

While the original 1986 arcade release of Outrun included a red car that bears a striking resemblance to a Ferarri Testarossa convertible, Sega's 2003 release of Outrun 2 was the first game in the series to include officially licensed Ferrari cars. Outrun Online Arcade was originally released on the European PlayStation network and worldwide for Xbox Live Arcade last April with 10 different drivable Ferrari vehicles.


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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by Mod_Man_Extreme Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:50 pm

CRTGAMER wrote:Thanks to d123456 for pointing this out.

This puts a real time ring on what is happening in the DRM market. Purchased support gone on this DRM game. A state of things to come, remember when Amazon Kindle deleted some purchased downloads? Through console updates, maybe older DRMs may get disabled as licenses expire?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30919/End_Of_Ferrari_Deal_Pulls_Segas_OutRun_Online_Arcade_From_XBLA_PSN.php

End Of Ferrari Deal Pulls Sega's OutRun Online Arcade From XBLA, PSN

The expiration of a licensing deal with Ferrari has led Sega to remove OutRun Online Arcade from the PlayStation Network, with the Xbox Live Arcade version to be removed from the service in December 2011. The PSN removal tracks closely with the release of System 3's release of Eutechnyx-developed Ferrari: The Race Experience on the European PSN last week, ahead of a planned November release on the Wii.

Those that have already downloaded the game will still be able to play it, though it's unclear whether existing owners will be able to re-download their purchase after the removal.

While the original 1986 arcade release of Outrun included a red car that bears a striking resemblance to a Ferarri Testarossa convertible, Sega's 2003 release of Outrun 2 was the first game in the series to include officially licensed Ferrari cars. Outrun Online Arcade was originally released on the European PlayStation network and worldwide for Xbox Live Arcade last April with 10 different drivable Ferrari vehicles.


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Nobody said you couldn't re-download it when if you had to, just that it's no longer being offered for sale on PSN.

This is exactly the same as when a brand new game sitting on the she;f for a while is recalled by a manufacturer over licensing and other issues resulting in increased rarity for used copies. This happens all the time and has been going on for forever in retail stores, not DRM's fault.
My Consoles:
Genesis - Nomad - SegaCD - GameGear - Sega Saturn - Dreamcast - NES - SNES - N64 - Gamecube - Wii - Playstation - PSone & LCD - PS2 - PS3 - Xbox - 3DS

Niode wrote:Send him a dodgy cheque. Make it out to Scammy McScammerson.


Check out my sale thread below, NeoGeo MVS carts & Arcade gear wanted!:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11366
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CRTGAMER
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by CRTGAMER Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:34 pm

Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:Nobody said you couldn't re-download it when if you had to, just that it's no longer being offered for sale on PSN.

This is exactly the same as when a brand new game sitting on the she;f for a while is recalled by a manufacturer over licensing and other issues resulting in increased rarity for used copies. This happens all the time and has been going on for forever in retail stores, not DRM's fault.

Not a DRM fault, but a DRM savvy market control tool. A predicted precedence taking place.
The control of how long a purchased game will work.

With that Ferrari licensing expiration Sega through PSN and XBox Live can't keep offering the game, even for download established purchased customers. Factory recalls pull games from the shelf, but that doesn't affect those who have already bought the game. As in the Kindle example earlier, DRM allows the game company direct control of a game purchase.
Those that have already downloaded the game will still be able to play it, though it's unclear whether existing owners will be able to re-download their purchase after the removal.

So how will a DRM download be recalled? The site will pull the game but how to get all the existing product back? Through a mandated console update. The latest PS3 console update disabled some 3rd party USB controllers. Yes, its only a few controllers that one may not own. BUT, basically the start of killing the 3rd party market. Why buy a, say Mad Katz controller today when a mandated update later will disable it. The same update can also shut down select downloads. A simple line of code that disables a currently installed game such as the DRM Ferrari game. When a download will no longer work, the consumer will likely get a refund but can no longer play the cherished game. Meanwhile I still happily play my older non-DRM controlled Dreamcast-PS2 version of Ferrari.
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Mod_Man_Extreme
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by Mod_Man_Extreme Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:02 pm

CRTGAMER wrote:
Mod_Man_Extreme wrote:Nobody said you couldn't re-download it when if you had to, just that it's no longer being offered for sale on PSN.

This is exactly the same as when a brand new game sitting on the she;f for a while is recalled by a manufacturer over licensing and other issues resulting in increased rarity for used copies. This happens all the time and has been going on for forever in retail stores, not DRM's fault.

Not a DRM fault, but a DRM savvy market control tool. A predicted precedence taking place.
The control of how long a purchased game will work.

With that Ferrari licensing expiration Sega through PSN and XBox Live can't keep offering the game, even for download established purchased customers. Factory recalls pull games from the shelf, but that doesn't affect those who have already bought the game. As in the Kindle example earlier, DRM allows the game company direct control of a game purchase.
Those that have already downloaded the game will still be able to play it, though it's unclear whether existing owners will be able to re-download their purchase after the removal.

So how will a DRM download be recalled? The site will pull the game but how to get all the existing product back? Through a mandated console update. The latest PS3 console update disabled some 3rd party USB controllers. Yes, its only a few controllers that one may not own. BUT, basically the start of killing the 3rd party market. Why buy a, say Mad Katz controller today when a mandated update later will disable it. The same update can also shut down select downloads. A simple line of code that disables a currently installed game such as the DRM Ferrari game. When a download will no longer work, the consumer will likely get a refund but can no longer play the cherished game. Meanwhile I still happily play my older non-DRM controlled Dreamcast-PS2 version of Ferrari.

What you just described is 100% illegal.

You've purchased a product. Once you purchase it you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

They can prevent new access to it via product recall from store shelves with traditional media or simply remove public access to new downloads from online services. There's still the issue of providing the support on the product for those who paid for it and in turn legitimately require it, but not for anyone else just looking to get in on it now that it's gone.

If I come in and simply take your property away I'm violating your legal right to own what you've paid for. Plain and simple.

More then likely it goes one of three ways here. Ferrari will work with Sega to renew the license and everyone can get in on it again; Ferrari allows Sega to continue offering the download to those who have already purchased it and are looking to re-download after a system crash or hard drive upgrade; Ferrari says fuck it and lets the game die.

Also, none of the controllers from Mad Catz or any third party had ANY issues at all whatsoever after the update. Do you know how third parties even make any of this stuff? They actually have to license the controller tech from Sony themselves to gain approval to sell it in a retail environment. Later on as consoles age and peripheral restrictions are removed you see a lot of BS controllers from Chinese outfits you didn't see before but those are the ones that would be disabled. Not the stuff manufactured by a legitimate third party.
My Consoles:
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Niode wrote:Send him a dodgy cheque. Make it out to Scammy McScammerson.


Check out my sale thread below, NeoGeo MVS carts & Arcade gear wanted!:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11366
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Mod_Man_Extreme
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by Mod_Man_Extreme Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:07 pm

CRTGAMER wrote:So how will a DRM download be recalled? The site will pull the game but how to get all the existing product back? Through a mandated console update.

To re-iterate.

A recall means removing it from the online or brick and mortar retail storefront.

Violating someone's privacy and removing the data from the console itself is illegal. You yourself cited the Amazon kindle case from a while back, they were involved in a huge class action lawsuit that they LOST because of it. Afterwords they had to either return the book to those who wanted it back, or issue a full refund to the ones that just didn't care about it anymore.
My Consoles:
Genesis - Nomad - SegaCD - GameGear - Sega Saturn - Dreamcast - NES - SNES - N64 - Gamecube - Wii - Playstation - PSone & LCD - PS2 - PS3 - Xbox - 3DS

Niode wrote:Send him a dodgy cheque. Make it out to Scammy McScammerson.


Check out my sale thread below, NeoGeo MVS carts & Arcade gear wanted!:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11366
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by CRTGAMER Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:17 pm

Missing the point about DRM controls on the consumer.

DRM can control licensed media, even after purchased.

I'll use Sony as an example, the same can apply to XBox Live, Steam and any other DRM managed site.

Sony has already locked out some unlicensed controllers through the mandated "Do you want to keep playing online" update.

Maybe Sony is right in preventing an unlicensed product, but proves a dangerous to consumer capability.

Any PSN DRM you purchase is still controlled by Sony, DRM game can potentially be disabled.

Would Sony do this, who knows? Its just the fact that they have this DRM tool at their disposal. The download support is already gone for existing customers of Outrun Arcade Online as attested by some Racketboy members. Support for the online gaming will go away since a newer game gets the license. Imagine this scenario for some of your current favorite games as a newer contract comes to market.

It just sets a precedence as what Amazon did with Kindle, which I think the customers got a refund. Does anyone anyone actually read the license agreement before downloading or installing? Buried in that encyclopedia somewhere is a sneaky comment about a license to use of product and not owned.


The Amazon Kindle, this happened in 2009.
Ironic the book 1984 by George Orwell got deleted. "Big Brother Watching."
http://www.ddmcd.com/managing-technology/amazon-kindle-orwell-deletion-may-be-legal-but-its-still-dou.html

Amazon Kindle Orwell Deletion May Be Legal -- But It's Still Doubleplusungood
Saturday, July 18, 2009 at 02:58PM
By Dennis D. McDonald, Ph.D.

I know I know — the Orwell titles deleted from customer Kindles by Amazon were unauthorized copies. I’m still concerned. Why? Because it demonstrates how this technology can be applied and managed remotely without the owner’s involvement. Next time it will be a title embroiled in some kind of legal dispute, or a government agency will beg that a title be deleted for national security reasons.

Given what just happened I don’t see how you can say such scenarios are impossible.

Which disappoints me, since I want a Kindle, and I maintain a lot of my own personal data online “in the cloud.” I have to think about this more, now.

Be that as it may, one of the purposes of Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology is to allow just such a scenario — post sale control of licensed media. We just saw that DRM does in fact work as advertised.

This reminds me of arguments that swirled around the old “DIVX DVD” technology that Circuit City lost so much money on so many years ago; DIVX DVD playback could be deactivated remotely for non-payment, but Circuit City could never convince folks that mistaken de-activation was impossible.

I’ll still buy stuff from Amazon. The service is good. Hopefully, though, they won’t get their hands on eMusic.[/url]

2011 - watch out DRM gamers.
Any bets I'm wrong?
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Re: History of Copy Protection and the DRM Future of Gaming

by AppleQueso Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:46 pm

CRTGAMER wrote:Any PSN DRM you purchase is still controlled by Sony, DRM game can potentially be disabled.


As Modman here has already pointed out, sure they technically could do this, but they'd get their asses sued off because it's illegal for them to do so.

Besides that, history has shown several times already that when DRM gets out of hand, consumers respond, either with litigation or with their wallets. You don't have to look far to find examples.

I don't like DRM either, but it's important to remember that companies need to protect their assets, regardless of how futile their efforts seem. This is especially important during a time when free entertainment is readily available for anybody who simply doesn't want to pay for it.
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