Emu Talk Goes Here
User avatar
fuctfuct
128-bit
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:42 am
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada

Scanlines .. Help

by fuctfuct Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:57 pm

This is a problem i have had for quite a while but have been ignoring it.

Ever since i started using windows 7 (long time ago) the scan lines in my emulators have not been displaying correctly. It's kinda hard to explain. They appear to be unevenly spaced and some are bunched together. It only happens in full screen so i am trying to figure out a way to make a picture showing the problem. It is less visible with less % of scan lines added and bi linear filtering also helps.

I notice that emulators like FB Alpha don't completely fill my screen when you enable scan lines. When FB Alpha does this the problem i am describing is pretty much non existent. But it sucks having black bars around the entire image. So I assume it has something to do with stretching?

Any ideas?

The monitor i am using is 19 inch LCD (1280x1024 5:4) and i always use the correct aspect ratio so there is slight letter boxing on the top and bottom (and both sides for FB Alpha) of the monitor. If that helps..

EDIT:
This is the best i can do for an example...

Kega Fusion using Superscale and the emus built in %50 scanlines option
http://i.imgur.com/CsCG3.jpg

This is what scanlines look like across most of my emulators in full screen.
http://i.imgur.com/rzufV.jpg

Though it would display as a normal 4:3 image. I just smushed it to show the affect.

If you save the second picture and zoom into Sparkster's face you'll see it better.


EDIT2:
Messing around with a bunch of emulators today. So far ..

FB Alpha -> Directx9 Alt -> Superscale75 - works great :)

Nestopia -> NTSC -> RGB -> %50 scanlines - works OK if i use bilinear filtering (if i REALLY look i can see slight problems)

SNES9x -> Blargg's NTSC (RGB) or TV Mode - works OK if i use bilinear filtering (if i REALLY look i can see slight problems)

Fusion -> Superscale -> Emulators built in %50 scanline option - Works great
(basically any of the built in scanline settings work perfectly)

MAME -> Any of the scanline effects - Works great

I guess i am just down to SNES now. The options above don't apply many scanlines and while i like RGB on NES i don't really for SNES. Would love to play SNES with superscale and scan lines but haven't found a way yet :(. I think bsnes might be able to do it since it can combine a filter and a shader but anytime i try scanlines on it it's pretty much the worst example of this problem i have seen :(. It does work fine if you use the center option for fullscreen. But the black border on all sides sucks hehe


EDIT3:
I take back what i said about..

Nestopia -> NTSC -> RGB -> %50 scanlines - works OK if i use bilinear filtering (if i REALLY look i can see slight problems)

You can very clearly see problems when anything scrolls up with any scanline setting over %4 :(
Last edited by fuctfuct on Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Image
Jontendo
64-bit
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:30 am

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by Jontendo Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 am

I know you mentioned it already, but it still sounds like aspect ratio is off. Even with the borders, it sounds like it's not maintaining the original dimensions.

Maybe Windows 7 is using a different video mode that doesn't scale pixel-perfect... :?
User avatar
fuctfuct
128-bit
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:42 am
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by fuctfuct Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:52 pm

Yea, it definitely has something to do with stretching.

This is the best i can do for an example...

Kega Fusion using Superscale and the emus built in %50 scanlines option
http://i.imgur.com/CsCG3.jpg

This is what scanlines look like across most of my emulators in full screen.
http://i.imgur.com/rzufV.jpg

Though it would display as a normal 4:3 image. I just smushed it to show the affect.

If you save the second picture and zoom into Sparkster's face you'll see it better.
Image
User avatar
neilencio
64-bit
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:13 am
Location: Philippines

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by neilencio Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:02 am

I encountered a similar problem when I switched to Windows 7, although I am not sure if my solution will work in your case (my problem happens with epsxe and kgen).

In my case, the problem only appears if the resolution the emulator is using is not my monitor's native (1280x1024) and if the scanlines are 50% below. If I switch the emulator's resolution to 1280x1024 and up the scanlines to 100%, i get better looking (finer and more even) scanlines. I think it has something to do with stretching and the size of the screen itself (if the resolution is smaller than my monitor's native one, the scanlines end up being stretched unevenly, resulting in some "lines" being thicker than the others).
Visit my wife's blog: Pinay Geek
User avatar
Zing
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:36 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by Zing Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:32 am

Yes, if you are running full-screen at less than the native resolution of your LCD, you will get uneven scaling. You need to use a resolution that is an integer multiplier of your native resolution, or a CRT monitor.
Selling half my NES/SNES/PS1 collection (ending Dec 1):
http://tinyurl.com/zingebay
User avatar
fuctfuct
128-bit
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:42 am
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by fuctfuct Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 pm

I always use my native resolution and maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio through the option in the given emulator. Scanlines are usually messed up.

I notice that when emulators fill the entire 4:3 portion of my 5:4 screen the scanlines are usually messed up (except mame). But if they also put bars on the sides they are fine.

I just read this on the bsnes site
Center will scale the image as much as possible, while keeping an even multiple of the image height. This is the ideal setting if you use scanlines, or pixellated video output, as otherwise the pixels will not be of uniform height, and look rather awful. However, you will end up with black bars not only on the left and right, but on the top and bottom of the image, as well.

Scale will fill the entire height of your monitor, at the cost of losing an even video multiplier. This option should be used with smooth video enabled, and no scanline filter applied. You will still have black bars on the left and right side of your monitor, if you are using a widescreen monitor.

Stretch will fill the entire monitor, leaving no black bars anywhere. However, on widescreen monitors, it will completely destroy the aspect ratio. Characters will appear extremely fat, and scrolling will be heavily distorted. This option should only be used on 4:3 monitors running at 1280x1024 resolution, as this is a custom PC resolution that uses non-square pixels, and this option will result in a clean image here. If you care at all about image quality, do not use this for any other reason.

While whoever wrote that is wrong about 1280x1024 being 4:3. I guess scanlines just don't work when stretched that much because your not keeping an even multiple of the image height? *shrugs*
Image
User avatar
ZenErik
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:15 am
Location: Boston

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by ZenErik Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:47 pm

You're always going to have scanline issues on an LCD. Just got a CRT yesterday, and older games look so much better.
My B/S/T thread! :)
Switch ID: ??? ||| PSN ID: ZenErik (PS4) ||| Steam: Erikdayo
User avatar
fuctfuct
128-bit
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:42 am
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by fuctfuct Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:20 pm

I should also point out that it is very possible to have it work properly. The (Kega) Fusion and MAME scanline options work great.

I love the way it is implemented in Fusion. You can choose any filter you want and then apply scanlines to it. My favourite being Superscale + %50. Sucks that this is the only emulator that lets you do this.
Image
User avatar
ZenErik
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 4187
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:15 am
Location: Boston

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by ZenErik Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:25 pm

fuctfuct wrote:I should also point out that it is very possible to have it work properly. The (Kega) Fusion and MAME scanline options work great.

I love the way it is implemented in Fusion. You can choose any filter you want and then apply scanlines to it. My favourite being Superscale + %50. Sucks that this is the only emulator that lets you do this.

The thing is LCDs already have input lag. Adding different filters and scalers is just going to add more input lag. That's a deal breaker for a lot of arcade games, IMO.
My B/S/T thread! :)
Switch ID: ??? ||| PSN ID: ZenErik (PS4) ||| Steam: Erikdayo
User avatar
fuctfuct
128-bit
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:42 am
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada

Re: Scanlines .. Help

by fuctfuct Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:46 pm

PC LCDs for the most part have very low input lag. Obviously some are better then others and they all lag a little compared to a CRT (but nothing even close to most LCD TVs). Regardless, i am not going back to CRT unless i build a cab so...
Image
Return to Emulation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests