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SNES_is_the_Best
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:57 pm

ApolloBoy wrote:
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:Unfortunately, the top loader NES has crammed some of the original chips into 1 chip, which "may or may not" cause minor hiccups with some games.

That's not true at all, the top loader uses the exact same chips as the front loader and original Famicom so games will play exactly the same no matter the system. The only real difference is that the top loader lacks the lockout chip. On the AV Famicom, Nintendo combined both controller buffer ICs into a single chip, but that's about it as far as they went with chip consolidation on the NES/Famicom.

I believe you're thinking of most Famiclones which do indeed have an inaccurate ASIC.


Yes it is true. I'll let Nintendo themselves answer your comment.

Nintendo Power Volume 53, Page 87 wrote:The insides of the new NES also changed. A more consolidated circuit board makes the unit simpler to assemble and repair. Gone are the A/V outputs and a number of components that have been combined into a single, custom chip. The Central Processing Unit and the Picture Processing Unit - the real brains and brawn of the NES - remain unchanged"


You may have thought I was referring to the PPU or CPU. Unlike the Revised SNES, the Revised NES did not take things this far.

Still though, combiner chips are usually sketchy at best. I haven't done serious testing with the newer NES as I sold it years ago, so I couldn't say what games are affected by the combined chips.
Gaming peaked with the SNES/Genesis era. Its been downhill ever since.
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ApolloBoy
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by ApolloBoy Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:40 pm

SNES_is_the_Best wrote:Yes it is true.

Uhh nope, I actually have a top loader open in front of me this second and that Nintendo Power quote is completely wrong. The top loader has the same amount of chips as the original Famicom; you've got the CPU, PPU, two 74368 buffers, two SRAM chips, a 74373 multiplexer and a 74139 decoder/demultiplexer. The front loader adds the lockout chip and a 7404 hex inverter which forms part of the reset and lockout circuitry.

The only NES/Fami variants which have any kind of consolidated chips are the AV Famicom and the very rare later versions of the top loader, which combine the controller buffer ICs (and the 74139, sorry for not including that earlier) into a single chip.
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SNES_is_the_Best
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:15 pm

ApolloBoy wrote:
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:Yes it is true.

Uhh nope, I actually have a top loader open in front of me this second and that Nintendo Power quote is completely wrong. The top loader has the same amount of chips as the original Famicom; you've got the CPU, PPU, two 74368 buffers, two SRAM chips, a 74373 multiplexer and a 74139 decoder/demultiplexer. The front loader adds the lockout chip and a 7404 hex inverter which forms part of the reset and lockout circuitry.

The only NES/Fami variants which have any kind of consolidated chips are the AV Famicom and the very rare later versions of the top loader, which combine the controller buffer ICs (and the 74139, sorry for not including that earlier) into a single chip.


Well its possible Nintendo was referring to the later revision, or AV Famicom (perhaps that was the version they were sent?). But I quoted them word-for-word, that's all I can do because I don't own one.
Gaming peaked with the SNES/Genesis era. Its been downhill ever since.
roadkill
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by roadkill Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:20 am

SNES_is_the_Best, I recently acquired an old Super Nintendo since I want try and modify it to output component video and you were right about Super FX games being slower on the mini, I played Doom on the older SNES and it ran so fast compared to the mini! And this is a Doom that I overclocked with a faster crystal oscillator too. The speed of it makes it a lot more fun and playable now. I'm going to have to back down on the SNES mini/1CHIP SNES being the best, they do have their flaws.

What I liked about the SNES mini though was that the S-Video picture quality was so damn clean, no interference in the picture quality at all. I've read that the component picture quality of these old Super Nintendos if modded correctly can be better than their stock RGB SCART output, so I'll be modifying it for sure. I also do notice the more smoother pixels, I just wish it was a cleaner picture without interference like on a modified SNES mini. However I didn't mind the sharper image and deeper whites of the SNES mini, so I guess it just comes down to personal preference in that regard. I did notice some ghosting though, mostly just in Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario World. Didn't bother me all that much.
Last edited by roadkill on Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:29 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by roadkill Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:56 am

SNES_is_the_Best wrote:
roadkill wrote:Systems don't always get worse with newer revisions. Microsoft combined the CPU and the GPU of the Xbox 360 into one to also cut costs. It was way superior to the launch Xbox 360s and completely eliminated the dreaded red ring of death that plagued the launch and Falcon model Xbox 360s.


The newer Xbox for sure has less "red ring of death" issues. But, you make it sound as if it was because they combined the CPU and GPU into 1 chip. That's one wild assumption if that's what your insinuating.

roadkill wrote:As time goes by and the console gets older, companies not only find ways to cut costs but to also make them better than the launch consoles. The Top Loading NES is the best NES


The only thing that the top loader NES has over the original is less issues with the PIN connector. Unfortunately, the top loader NES has crammed some of the original chips into 1 chip, which "may or may not" cause minor hiccups with some games.

And what your saying is a bit of a contradiction. Think about it. When you try to cut costs, you tend to take shortcuts and quality goes down. That's why the newer SNES is glitchy with some games. That's why the audio has a higher SNR (signal to noise ratio). That's why it has ghosting.

roadkill wrote:I've read that the Genesis 3, despite not having support for either the Sega CD or Sega 32X add-ons (maybe that's a good thing :lol: ), also has the best picture quality compared to the older old Genesis Model 1s and Model 2s when modified to support S-Video and/or RGB.


RGB is identical among all Genesis models.

roadkill wrote:Last but not least, the Game Genie not being supported on the SNES mini is nullified by the fact that I can just use the Game Genie feature in SNES flash carts such as the Super Everdrive v2 and supposedly the SD2SNES will add Game Genie support as well in the future.


Not true. The 1CHIP-Mini can't run anymore than 2 lines of codes (versus 5 lines on the original SNES), and that's only on the Version 2.0 Game Genie (the one that adds the dash between the letters while you punch in the code. The version 1.0 already has the dash added in)

Plus the Everdrive/SD2SNES is a hefty price to pay when the Game Genie only cost $10-15. And who knows if the Everdrive/SD2SNES will actually force the 1CHIP-Mini to accept more than 2 lines of code? Can it? Do you know if it can? No. You'll have to wait and see.


Ok, even though I backed down on the SNES mini being the best SNES revision, there are still some facts you're wrong on.

1) It is not a "wild assumption" that the Xbox 360 red ring of death fix is because of the CPU and GPU being combined onto one chip, it's a fact! Having a CPU and GPU on one chip that's also smaller than both of the launch Xbox 360's CPU and GPU chips (Xenon board) uses a lot less power, hence a lot less heat is produced. Why do you think AMD is making APUs? Why does the Xbox One and PS4 both have APUs? They're great for mobile devices, laptops and smaller form factor PC hardware. Also just look at the power ratings for the newer Xbox revisions compared to the launch ones, all of them are in the 100-150w range compared to 213w for the Xenons. However I got it wrong on the Jasper revision having just one CPU/GPU chip, it actually has two 65nm chips for the CPU and GPU, but that's still a huge difference compared to the 90nm Xenon chips. Again, 213w for Xenon, 150w for the Jasper Xbox 360 (my personal favorite). The CPU/GPU chip wasn't introduced until the smaller Xbox 360s, which was the reason they were able to be smaller, and used even less power than the Jasper revisions.

2) As ApolloBoy said, both the front loading and top loading NES are essentially the same thing. The only real differences between the two, besides the lockout chip and cartridge connectors obviously, are that the video rectifiers and reset circuits are different. There are very few Top Loaders out there with revised motherboards that were fixed by Nintendo for customers who complained about the jailbars though, which have different rectifiers for a pretty much jailbar free picture.

3) On cutting costs on newer revisions, you didn't disprove what I said. Yes shortcuts are done to cut costs and can lower quality in certain components, but these shortcuts can also actually be fixes for problems in older revisions too, which is win win for both the consumer and manufacturer.

4) Some Genesis can have better RGB than others actually. There are a lot of different video encoders used and better quality capacitors on some Genesis than others. The video encoders are as follows; Sony CXA1145, Fujitsu MB3514, Samsung KA2195D and Sony CXA1645.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... m-bad-ones

One example is that the Model 1 VA7 board revision doesn't suffer from rainbow banding and jailbars as badly as the Model 1 VA2, VA3, VA4, VA5, VA6, VA6.5 and VA6.8 revisions (Sega released A LOT of revisions :lol: ).

5) The Game Genie does indeed work on the 1CHIP/mini when I was using it on my Super Everdrive. And the 1CHIP and mini can basically be considered the same hardware btw, biggest difference is just the video encoders. I have used 8 lines of code in certain games so I can attest that all lines most work. I don't think Nintendo would go through the trouble to disable the codes when they can just stop the Game Genie from booting altogether. And I didn't just buy the Super Everdrive at a "hefty price" for Game Genie support on the SNES mini, I bought it because I can load 99% of the SNES library off of one cartridge. The Game Genie support is just a bonus. For what it does, the Super Everdrive is actually quite a bargain.
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theclaw
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by theclaw Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:24 pm

roadkill wrote:4) Some Genesis can have better RGB than others actually. There are a lot of different video encoders used and better quality capacitors on some Genesis than others. The video encoders are as follows; Sony CXA1145, Fujitsu MB3514, Samsung KA2195D and Sony CXA1645.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... m-bad-ones

One example is that the Model 1 VA7 board revision doesn't suffer from rainbow banding and jailbars as badly as the Model 1 VA2, VA3, VA4, VA5, VA6, VA6.5 and VA6.8 revisions (Sega released A LOT of revisions :lol: ).


You're thinking of RF and composite. That page doesn't compare RGB between revisions.
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SNES_is_the_Best
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:05 pm

roadkill wrote:SNES_is_the_Best, I recently acquired an old Super Nintendo since I want try and modify it to output component video and you were right about Super FX games being slower on the mini, I played Doom on the older SNES and it ran so fast compared to the mini! And this is a Doom that I overclocked with a faster crystal oscillator too. The speed of it makes it a lot more fun and playable now. I'm going to have to back down on the SNES mini/1CHIP SNES being the best, they do have their flaws.

What I liked about the SNES mini though was that the S-Video picture quality was so damn clean, no interference in the picture quality at all. I've read that the component picture quality of these old Super Nintendos if modded correctly can be better than their stock RGB SCART output, so I'll be modifying it for sure. I also do notice the more smoother pixels, I just wish it was a cleaner picture without interference like on a modified SNES mini. However I didn't mind the sharper image and deeper whites of the SNES mini, so I guess it just comes down to personal preference in that regard. I did notice some ghosting though, mostly just in Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario World. Didn't bother me all that much.


Thanks for your information. I've included it on my database here - viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303

I too like the slightly sharper picture of the newer 1CHIP. But I just hate the "additional" slowdown, ghosting, glitches, overdriven whites, etc. From a technical standpoint, the SHVC-CPU-01 is superior, because its doesn't have any of these problems. But if these problems don't bother you, and all your after is a sharper picture, then the 1CHIP/Mini will most likely satisfy you.

Hopefully one day, someone will isolate and identify what makes the 1CHIP/Mini glitchy and slower. This will be very helpful narrowing down what games will be negatively affected, so that testing them individually will no longer be necessary.
Gaming peaked with the SNES/Genesis era. Its been downhill ever since.
TheRetromancer
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by TheRetromancer Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:53 am

roadkill wrote: I've read that the component picture quality of these old Super Nintendos if modded correctly can be better than their stock RGB SCART output


That's not really accurate to say that.

First, 'better' is a subjective term. A lot of people like the 'softer' RGB of the older SNES consoles as opposed to the sharper-edged pixels found in the 1CHIP and Mini models. I'm not one of 'em - I love being able to see those razor edges on my 46" Samsung HDTV. It's bloody brilliant.

Secondly, Component video is a minor step down in quality from RGB. Ignoring the subjective preference outlined above, RGB is technically the superior video signal. In fact, Component video is a slight derivation of RGB itself - RGB is basically three colour channels plus sync, while component is two colour difference channels plus Luma+sync.

I freely admit, though, that while RGB is superiour as far as the numbers are concerned, the difference between the two is so slight as to be almost invisible. I've noticed that component video tends to have just a little more 'ghosting' than RGB, and occasionally I'll find a game that causes some slight jailbars, but it's really not that big of a difference.
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