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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:47 pm
by SNES_is_the_Best
Zing wrote:For sharpness, I just eyeball it while playing a video game. I definitely need it set higher than minimum for my NES via composite.

As for overscan, I used to use Avia, but it never seemed to come out right when actually playing games. I eventually switched to just using Avia to get the geometry correct, then using NES Super Mario Bros for overscan. SMB set so the score is just inside the frame and everything else squared up is almost exactly 5%, which is about as low as I have seen is reasonable on a CRT.


One thing that I have not found on the Avia DVD is "Aspect Ratio".

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:05 pm
by Zing
There is a test pattern for aspect ratio, but I believe it is not explicitly labeled as such. It's one of the crosshatch maybe? It has the square in the middle that you use to adjust until it is square by measuring it.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:25 am
by SNES_is_the_Best
Zing wrote:There is a test pattern for aspect ratio, but I believe it is not explicitly labeled as such. It's one of the crosshatch maybe? It has the square in the middle that you use to adjust until it is square by measuring it.


EDIT: The overscan patterns or aspect ratio patterns on the original Avia DVD do not work on CRT displays (well, at least not ones that are Standard Definition). For whatever reason, these patterns only display correctly on flat-panel HDTV's (not sure about HD-CRT's). I've double, triple, and quadruple checked all CRT displays I've ever used, including my 1000 line, top of the line display that's been ISF calibrated and the 4:3 ratio on it is 100% accurate after calibration.

The best way for retro gamers to calibrate "Aspect Ratio" on their Standard Definition CRT's, is to use the opening screen from Super Mario World. The 15khz signal of the SNES displays the border around the title screen in a flawless 4:3 ratio (yep, checked on my ISF calibrated display, its flawless). For retro gamers, the Avia DVD is best used for setting black level, white level, hue, and saturation. The SNES black levels are 0 IRE NTSC-J. If your DVD player has an "enhanced black" or similar "Black Level Off" setting, then you'll be able to calibrate black levels that match the SNES, NES, etc. Otherwise, you can use "Blackthorne" on the SNES and go to the practice stage, and lower black level on your display until you can BARELY see the little dark blue dots in the background (barely visible, but not invisible). You can also do the same thing with Donkey Kong Country 3 using the Fire-Ball Frenzy stage in the Mekanos world. There is some very dark shadow detail thats in the background around the lanterns/lights. Lower black level until you can BARELY see the darkest details surrounding those lights. I'm sure there are other games that can be used in the same fashion, but these are the ones that I noticed and took note of.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:45 pm
by Dr. Stantz
So would it be possible to make a custom cable that had a standard Nintendo multi out on one end and YPbPr and 2 rca audio on the other and hook it to an unmodified early SNES and work?

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:19 am
by Ziggy587
Dr. Stantz wrote:So would it be possible to make a custom cable that had a standard Nintendo multi out on one end and YPbPr and 2 rca audio on the other and hook it to an unmodified early SNES and work?


Absolutely not.

Those early SNESes don't actually output YPbPr, they only have it internally.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:16 pm
by dogman91
Zing wrote:For sharpness, I just eyeball it while playing a video game. I definitely need it set higher than minimum for my NES via composite.

Sharpness seems to change for various consoles I notice. Genesis it needs way less sharpening, SNES a lot more. With the Avia DVD at the softest, blurriest settings possible on my TV there's still white lines so that's how I learned to simply eyeball it.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:28 am
by AppleQueso
Ziggy587 wrote:
Dr. Stantz wrote:So would it be possible to make a custom cable that had a standard Nintendo multi out on one end and YPbPr and 2 rca audio on the other and hook it to an unmodified early SNES and work?


Absolutely not.

Those early SNESes don't actually output YPbPr, they only have it internally.


You could probably cut a few of the traces on the board (perhaps the RGB? I mean if you're using Component I doubt you're planning to use RGB anyway) and hook up the YPbPr lines into that and still use the multi-out.

...but that's not really "unmodified"

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:03 am
by emwearz
I have not read the whole topic, but two questions.

1) has this been found present on any PAL boards?

2) Is it possible to tap it from the multi-out (solder from the underside of the port).

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:25 am
by Ziggy587
emwearz wrote:1) has this been found present on any PAL boards?


If early revisions of the PAL SNES have the same video encoder, then yes. But why would you want component video when you can easily use RGB SCART (which is better).

emwearz wrote:2) Is it possible to tap it from the multi-out (solder from the underside of the port).


OK, here's how it works: Early SNESes had one of three video encoders. The BA6591, BA6592, or the "S-ENC" which we're all pretty sure is just the BA6592F rebranded. The purpose of the video encoder (in this case) is to take RGB and turn it into S-Video and composite. This video encoder is unique though, it's method is to create a Pb and Pr signal to output but only to input it back into the encoder and further process it into S-Video and then composite. I believe this is done because if you look at the schematics the Pr and Pb signal passes through an RC circuit. So I guess they couldn't fit those extra components inside the encoder, or didn't want to for whatever reason.

But anyway, the Pb and Pr signal was there, and some one discovered it by mistake and now we're here.

So to answer your question. No, it is not possible to tap it from the multi out. What we have been doing is getting the Y signal from the multi out, since it's good to go. But you have to get the Pb and Pr signals from the video encoder, that's the only place they exist. And they're not TV ready, either. You have to add a circuit of one kind or another.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:37 pm
by roadkill
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:
Drakon wrote:Newer models of the snes have better ppus and better circuits sending a cleaner image quality rgb into the encoder.


No disrespect, but this statement is not accurate. The newer PPU (S-CPUN-A) found in the 1CHIP and Mini is worse for several reasons.

1. Cheap, Inaccurate, and operates like a clone device - The 1CHIP/Mini are as Byuu says
"more of a clone system. There are "drastic" changes. Not so much stuff that's going to affect most games directly, but stuff that tells you the chip is radically different on the inside. Things like the SMP Timer Glitch vanishing, different behaviors of the TEST register, some DSP subtleties, the PPU being entirely different, and mid-scanline effects are totally different which affects games like A.S.P. Air Strike Patrol where the plane's shadow is almost invisible."
Not only that, but there are LOTS of graphical glitches in the 1CHIP/Mini (and sound glitches). For example; Graphical Glitches on the top of the screen in games like Aladdin (seen right away in 1st stage) and Mystic Quest (seen immediately on title screen), and other WORSE glitches like the text boxes being out of wack on some games, like Rudra No Hihou or Treasure of the Rudras (while chatting with people in town or small text areas in battles), and some Super FX games running slower than normal.

2. Missing Smoothing (or dithering) Filter - This is 1 of 2 reasons why the newer PPU appears "sharper". But sharper doesn't necessarily mean "better". Nintendo developed added filtering for a reason, most likely to keep the graphically complex games from getting a blocky look. (NOTE: my choice of words (ie; filter/smoothing/etc) are probably not accurate. I use these words for two reasons. A.) Because I couldn't think of better words, and B.) Because it helps others to better understand what I'm referring to.)

3. Grossly Overdriven White Levels - This, combined with the increased sharpness mentioned above results in a what appears to be a cleaner image, but the end result is bloomed whites that hide some details, and jagged edges in tons of graphically complex games like Chrono Trigger, Donkey Kong Country 1-3, Killer Instinct, Super FX Games, Mode 7 Games, other graphically complex games like Super Mario RPG, Secret of Mana 2, Secret of Evermore, Mortal Kombat 3, and I could go on and on. Also, the high almost bluish whites make the vertical bar in the S-CPUN-A (1CHIP) more noticeable. Fortunately the model 2 has less noise on its PCB board which lessens the vertical bar, but its still there. The whites are so high that they result in ghosting in many games as well.

Truth is, the old SHVC-CPU-01 board is most definitely superior to the 1CHIP/Mini. Yes, its "slightly" less sharp, but Nintendo didn't "accidentally" create a bad, or poor PPU on its SNES. They knew exactly what they were doing. They did not want overdriven whites or ghosting or graphical glitches, or even jaggies. Remember, this is the "launch model" were dealing with, and its high cost, its accurate, its the original. Nintendo developed their SNES and tweaked the software for their PPU's to their liking, and the PPU's were fine-tuned and not half-arsed as some may assume. Also keep in mind that ALL developers for the SNES were developing games on professional RGB, high quality CRT monitors so they were not concerned with S-Video, or Composite. In other words, when you play your SNES games on the SHVC-CPU-01 via RGB on a CRT, then you are viewing them EXACTLY the way they were meant to be viewed. They were never meant to be viewed with visual glitches, overdriven whites, or ghosting. Most (if not all) SNES games were developed on development kits that play exactly like the SHVC-CPU-01. So you can rest assured that with the original model, your getting 100% accuracy.

So then why did Nintendo release the 1CHIP revision? The same reason why Sega released their Genesis 2 and 3. To simply cut costs. And boy did Nintendo do that well. Even their revisions known as SNS-CPU-RGB and SNS-CPU-APU are cost cutting, and as a result, low grade compared to the original SHVC-CPU-01. The 2nd best is the SNS-CPU-GPM. The rest are trash in in comparison.

If some people prefer the stripped down 1CHIP/Mini, with its graphical glitches, high-white picture, AND cheaper sound module, then your free to choose them. I just wanted to set the record straight as to which revision is the best (not which revision is personal preference), as there is nothing wrong with the original SHVC-CPU-01. Its the way SNES games are suppose to look and play. For example, when Nintendo was finished with creating their SNES and Super Mario World's graphics, they were in essence saying "This is exactly how we want it to look". And guess what? That's how a purist will want to play it. And a cheap, cost-cutting clone is NOT how I myself want to play it, even IF Nintendo's name is stamped on it. Its just like when Nintendo originally released the Wii. It had 480p and Component output. AND later on, Nintendo released the cheap, cost-cutting alternative. They took out 480p, and they took out Component video. Now let me ask you, which one is going to display Super Mario Galaxy the way it was intended to be viewed? I hope that makes sense.

I know my post is quite long, but I read through this thread a few times and I just had set the record straight once and for all. I've given the facts for people to decide, not to force them into choosing one or the other. Nevertheless, if there was anyone on the fence about ditching their original model for a newer model, then maybe my post will help them to decide to mod their old SHVC-CPU-01 (or SNS-CPU-GPM-01) for component video and forget about buying the 1CHIP/Mini. They are not worth it.

P.S. Game Genie doesn't work on the 1CHIP/Mini ether. Haha. And for the record, I quoted Drakon's post for reference purposes only, as alot of people are being told by other users that the newer PPU (S-CPUN-A) is better, which it is not, for the reasons listed above.

EDIT: Added a little more info. Fixed some of my language used.


I registered just to counter this argument. This post of yours has some true points but the SNES mini is still the best SNES revision out there once RGB modded.

Before I start I'm going to mention that I own both a SNES mini and an original SNES from 1995. I used to own one from 1991 but I sold it because the picture quality was so bad that I just didn't even want to bother with it anymore. The vertical line down the middle of the screen problem of every original SNES alone makes the SNES mini the most superior version IMO, which is completely gone on my SNES mini (some claim it's still there but just barely noticeable.)

So anyway, the ghosting you claim the SNES minis suffer from, I've never seen it, but there are some who claim it's there but say it's just barely noticeable if you really look hard enough in only certain parts of very few games. Also I've never read or seen anything anywhere about the SNES minis/1CHIPs having problems with any of the enhancement chip games, do you have proof? Super FX games run just fine on my SNES mini with no slowdown whatsoever. I had my SNES mini both S-Video modded and RGB modded and when using S-Video the picture is not only sharper but had more vibrant colors and it's such a clean picture with no interference. It's so good that it's actually hard to convince myself to even bother trying out RGB output on the console.

On my 1991 SNES I noticed interference and it was just a smudged and dull image compared to my SNES mini. The 1995 one is slightly sharper, I think it's because it has the same RGB encoder chip as the SNES mini, but it still suffers from interference like the 1991 version. They also both suffer from jailbars and less deeper blacks. In-game text on the 1CHIP (from what I've seen on youtube) and on my SNES mini is much easier to read because of the sharper image, and the picture quality in them is just fantastic, it's just that the 1CHIP revision suffers from the vertical line problem down the middle.

To counter your point about the Wii, yes the Wii mini cut out 480p and component support because it was meant for the absolute most casual user who doesn't know squat about component cables and will waste their HDTVs by using composite inputs. The newer Wii models before the mini that cut out Gamecube support had superior video quality over the older ones with Gamecube BC.

Systems don't always get worse with newer revisions. Microsoft combined the CPU and the GPU of the Xbox 360 into one to also cut costs. It was way superior to the launch Xbox 360s and completely eliminated the dreaded red ring of death that plagued the launch and Falcon model Xbox 360s.

As time goes by and the console gets older, companies not only find ways to cut costs but to also make them better than the launch consoles. The Top Loading NES is the best NES despite only having RF output, but it can be modded to support composite and even component or RGB scart! In fact, it's even easier to mod the top loading NESes for component/RGB scart than the front loading ones. So in essence, the 1CHIP SNESes had the best of both worlds for both the consumer and Nintendo, better video quality and cheaper costs.

I've read that the Genesis 3, despite not having support for either the Sega CD or Sega 32X add-ons (maybe that's a good thing :lol: ), also has the best picture quality compared to the older old Genesis Model 1s and Model 2s when modified to support S-Video and/or RGB.

Last but not least, the Game Genie not being supported on the SNES mini is nullified by the fact that I can just use the Game Genie feature in SNES flash carts such as the Super Everdrive v2 and supposedly the SD2SNES will add Game Genie support as well in the future.

And yes I did do a lot of edits on this post, but I just had to give the 1CHIP/SNES minis a very thorough and most accurate as possible argument against SNES_is_the_Best's post.