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SNES_is_the_Best
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:53 pm

dogman91 wrote:Would love to see a comparison of the S-ENC chip versus without btw with RGB for the SHVC-CPU-01... I'm hoping there's no difference if only for the fact I don't have to go out and buy another SNES. :P


I just ran my tests and there's virtually no difference via RGB except for one minor thing. The vertical bar is "slightly" less noticeable. I used Final Fantasy III to see this difference. Truth is, when you compare every model 1, the Vertical Bar shows up the least on the SHVC-CPU-01, with or without the S-ENC ....but only IF your using RGB. (I haven't tested the SNS-CPU-GPM revisions as I don't have them).
Last edited by SNES_is_the_Best on Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gaming peaked with the SNES/Genesis era. Its been downhill ever since.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:56 pm

Zing wrote:My SNES is an early model with the discrete sound module. I don't know the PCB revision as I have never opened this one, but the serial is UN13431967.


Crack it open! It would be great for others to know if the UN13 to UN15 has the S-ENC. Its hard enough to find a UN16 or UN17, AND in mint condition on top of that (no yellowing, etc).

P.S. The encoder will be behind the cartridge slot and clearly visible with a little light shined on it. You won't need to remove anything inside to see it.
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Jamisonia
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:54 pm

SNES_is_the_Best wrote:
Zing wrote:
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:
Here's something you might be interested in. http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite



This is awesome! This website calibrates based on bottom black level of 7.5 IRE. I always assumed video games were basing their brightness on 7.5 IRE being black, but was never sure. This means if you calibrate your set with any calibration DVD it will be too dark, because DVD is based on 0 IRE being as black as it gets.

A little background, IRE is a scale of how black black gets. Video black means the blackest a signal can get. Your set's brightness needs to be tuned so that no blacker than black information is displayed. For LaserDisc and VHS this level is 7.5 IRE. For DVD and Blu Ray its 0 IRE. This means that if video games are based on 7.5 IRE being video black, and you calibrate your set to 0 IRE being video black everything will be too dark. So if 7.5 IRE is video game video black one must use either the test patterns in the link above, or use a copy of video essentials on LaserDisc, as the DVDs are all wrong.

I wasn't ever sure if it was 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE because I know that during the LaserDisc days in Japan 0 IRE was still video black. So I thought oh maybe since video games were so Japan centric they're calibrated for 0 IRE. This may also suggest that Japanese releases are calibrated for a different black level than American releases... or they may not have given that much of shit. But Ocarina of Time on a TV set calibrated to 0 IRE is way too dark in certain areas like the graveyard. You can't see anything.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:35 pm

Jamisonia wrote:
SNES_is_the_Best wrote:Here's something you might be interested in. http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite

This is awesome! This website calibrates based on bottom black level of 7.5 IRE. I always assumed video games were basing their brightness on 7.5 IRE being black, but was never sure. This means if you calibrate your set with any calibration DVD it will be too dark, because DVD is based on 0 IRE being as black as it gets.

A little background, IRE is a scale of how black black gets. Video black means the blackest a signal can get. Your set's brightness needs to be tuned so that no blacker than black information is displayed. For LaserDisc and VHS this level is 7.5 IRE. For DVD and Blu Ray its 0 IRE. This means that if video games are based on 7.5 IRE being video black, and you calibrate your set to 0 IRE being video black everything will be too dark. So if 7.5 IRE is video game video black one must use either the test patterns in the link above, or use a copy of video essentials on LaserDisc, as the DVDs are all wrong.

I wasn't ever sure if it was 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE because I know that during the LaserDisc days in Japan 0 IRE was still video black. So I thought oh maybe since video games were so Japan centric they're calibrated for 0 IRE. This may also suggest that Japanese releases are calibrated for a different black level than American releases... or they may not have given that much of shit. But Ocarina of Time on a TV set calibrated to 0 IRE is way too dark in certain areas like the graveyard. You can't see anything.


What about "VCD"? Don't they run in 240p? It would be awesome if someone could make this 240p calibration suite for VCD.

I didn't know about the Ocarina test. But now that you mention it, I believe that Ocarina has a black test pattern that I can use!

So I guess Avia and DVE and WOWDisney are junk for retro gamers....hahaha. Thank God for eBay....we can sell the useless items!
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Jamisonia
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:06 pm

In terms of video calibration it shouldn't matter if the test patterns are output at 240p, 480i, 480p, etc, at least not for color, contrast, brightness, and tint. For geometry and overscan it does.

What matters is any changes or errors the device you're using may introduce. So calibrating your TV has to be done for a particular device. I don't think calibrating with a VCD would help because I'm betting its still set at 0 IRE. LaserDisc aren't set to 7.5 IRE because they're low resolution. That is just what the NTSC-U standards chose for video black. It was changed to 0 IRE when digital signals were introduced (not sure why). As I said before NTSC-J (Japan) standards have had video black set to 0 IRE always (again not sure why they did it differently).

The other place that errors will be introduced in connection type. Calibrating for YPbPr and calibrating for composite/svid will be different. The brightness level should be the same (assuming identical source black levels) however the color and tint should be different. Especially the tint. In fact according to DVE there is no reason Tint should even be adjustable for a YPbPr source. Tint adjustment was invented to make up for the color compression errors that composite/svid introduces in a signal. Because of this better TVs will have separate memories for their YPbPr inputs, and for their composite/svid inputs. My Wega CRT has two memories. My Panasonic Plasma has 5 different video setting memories!

What all of this boils down to, is you can use the Sega CD 240p calibration patterns that you linked to. Or you could use a combination of Avia, DVE, WoW, etc to calibrated color, tint, and get contrast close. Then put in a game that has those brightness boxes like Majora's Mask on N64. Calibrate brightness. Then go back and bring contrast back into calibration. Contrast and brightness interact, so adjusting one changes the other. That should get you pretty damn close to a reasonably good calibration for video game sources.

What I'll be curious to see is if the Sega CD is actually introducing signal errors into the system.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:10 pm

Jamisonia wrote:In terms of video calibration it shouldn't matter if the test patterns are output at 240p, 480i, 480p, etc, at least not for color, contrast, brightness, and tint. For geometry and overscan it does.

What matters is any changes or errors the device you're using may introduce. So calibrating your TV has to be done for a particular device. I don't think calibrating with a VCD would help because I'm betting its still set at 0 IRE. LaserDisc aren't set to 7.5 IRE because they're low resolution. That is just what the NTSC-U standards chose for video black. It was changed to 0 IRE when digital signals were introduced (not sure why). As I said before NTSC-J (Japan) standards have had video black set to 0 IRE always (again not sure why they did it differently).

The other place that errors will be introduced in connection type. Calibrating for YPbPr and calibrating for composite/svid will be different. The brightness level should be the same (assuming identical source black levels) however the color and tint should be different. Especially the tint. In fact according to DVE there is no reason Tint should even be adjustable for a YPbPr source. Tint adjustment was invented to make up for the color compression errors that composite/svid introduces in a signal. Because of this better TVs will have separate memories for their YPbPr inputs, and for their composite/svid inputs. My Wega CRT has two memories. My Panasonic Plasma has 5 different video setting memories!

What all of this boils down to, is you can use the Sega CD 240p calibration patterns that you linked to. Or you could use a combination of Avia, DVE, WoW, etc to calibrated color, tint, and get contrast close. Then put in a game that has those brightness boxes like Majora's Mask on N64. Calibrate brightness. Then go back and bring contrast back into calibration. Contrast and brightness interact, so adjusting one changes the other. That should get you pretty damn close to a reasonably good calibration for video game sources.

What I'll be curious to see is if the Sega CD is actually introducing signal errors into the system.


One of my pet peeves is sharpness. I don't see how this can be identical between 240p and 480i....in fact, its not (at least with my DVD player)
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Jamisonia
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:15 pm

Depending on the set sharpness should be turned to 0. All sharpness does is introduce fake lines. It gives the appearance of higher resolution where non actually exists. Worse it introduces information into the picture that isn't actually there. High sharpness actually hides detail. But adjust sharpness as you wish. Just know that you should turn it totally off for the most accurate picture.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:43 pm

Jamisonia wrote:Depending on the set sharpness should be turned to 0. All sharpness does is introduce fake lines. It gives the appearance of higher resolution where non actually exists. Worse it introduces information into the picture that isn't actually there. High sharpness actually hides detail. But adjust sharpness as you wish. Just know that you should turn it totally off for the most accurate picture.


Yea on the Avia DVD there's a point in which sharpness adds fake outlines. If I go lower than the point in which there are no outlines, then the picture gets fuzzy and noisy. So apparently the "0" setting is not good for my sets.
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Jamisonia
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:30 am

I don't know if its that 0 isn't good for your set as much as, the material just looks like shit without artifical sharpening. I do turn mine up a little. It can help N64 games especially.
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Zing
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Zing Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:09 pm

For sharpness, I just eyeball it while playing a video game. I definitely need it set higher than minimum for my NES via composite.

As for overscan, I used to use Avia, but it never seemed to come out right when actually playing games. I eventually switched to just using Avia to get the geometry correct, then using NES Super Mario Bros for overscan. SMB set so the score is just inside the frame and everything else squared up is almost exactly 5%, which is about as low as I have seen is reasonable on a CRT.
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