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theclaw
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by theclaw Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:08 am

My stance on the matter has nothing to do with accuracy.

If accurate happens to look best in a given situation, it achieved its purpose.
If not, then it didn't.
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Zing
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Zing Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:59 am

SNES_is_the_Best wrote:I've used the Avia DVD as well on my Trinitron via Component, and for some reason (that I am currently unable to pin down) the calibration settings for Avia and for my NES, SNES, and N64 are not the same.

I believe this is due to Avia being on 480i, and my consoles being on 240p. Like I said, I'm not able to pin down the "exact" reason/s, but I think my conjecture of 480i vs. 240p is close to accurate.


I've noticed the same thing. I assumed it was due to signal timing differences from the DVD player. I eventually stopped using it for calibrating anything but geometry. I adjust geometry and overscan using Avia, then simply adjust the user settings (sharpness, etc) by eye using a game console.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Zing Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:12 am

As someone who has put in a bit of time testing the model 2 versus the original, and I have probably already said it here in this thread, the model 2 clearly looks worse. Not just subjective, but objectively.

1) color temperature is inaccurate - the image is too blue. This tends to be interpreted as being "more white", but this is an illusion.

2) white levels are too high - in addition to being overly blue, the white level, or contrast, is much higher than expected.

3) ghosting - I'm not sure if the white levels are causing the ghosting, but it is there. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I've tried several TV sets from CRT to LCD and its always there.

Honourable mention) vertical line - vertical line is still there and on the TVs I used to test, is much more prominent

Unless these things can be fixed while doing the component mod, I don't see why anyone would wish to use this model. I suspect people who have already invested the time or money to mod their model 2 will be resistant to this idea, but objectively, one should be using the original PCB.
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ApolloBoy
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by ApolloBoy Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:09 pm

Zing wrote:1) color temperature is inaccurate - the image is too blue. This tends to be interpreted as being "more white", but this is an illusion.

I haven't noticed this much myself, even so that's something that can be compensated by adjusting the color temperature on your TV/monitor.

Zing wrote:2) white levels are too high - in addition to being overly blue, the white level, or contrast, is much higher than expected.

Again, not something that bothers me too much and something that can be adjusted for.

Zing wrote:3) ghosting - I'm not sure if the white levels are causing the ghosting, but it is there. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I've tried several TV sets from CRT to LCD and its always there.

I've noticed this as well, but I have a feeling this is caused by the RGB and S-video mods, which normally just call for 75 ohm resistors. I'll try experimenting one of these days with adding capacitors to see if it helps with the ghosting. I don't remember if it shows up in composite, I haven't used composite on my SNES mini in a while.

Zing wrote:Honourable mention) vertical line - vertical line is still there and on the TVs I used to test, is much more prominent

Strange, it's less noticeable on my two PVMs compared to my Super Fami, which has the SHVC-CPU-01 board.

Zing wrote:Unless these things can be fixed while doing the component mod, I don't see why anyone would wish to use this model.

Uh, small size? Plus, even with its defects, the SNES mini still outputs sharper video overall.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Ziggy587 Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:38 pm

ApolloBoy, you seem like you're defending the SNES mini, like what was said about it you took personal offense to. Know one cares if that's the model you wanna use for whatever reason, we're just trying to be objective here.

ApolloBoy wrote:that's something that can be compensated by adjusting the color temperature on your TV/monitor.

ApolloBoy wrote:something that can be adjusted for.


What ever floats your boat, but I personally don't like that one bit. It was suggested a million times while I was trying to figure out the YPbPr mod. The colors are a little off so just adjust the TV settings. OK, but what if my TV doesn't allow for separate settings on each input, or what if I'm sharing that input with other sources. It's really, REALLY annoying to have to adjust the settings every time I wanna use the SNES, then have to adjust them back after I'm done. I wanna be able to calibrate my TV/monitor and then never touch the settings again.


ApolloBoy wrote:Plus, even with its defects, the SNES mini still outputs sharper video overall.


:?

If the 1chip looks better to you on your TV/monitor then by all means use it! But this "sharper image" can actually be brutal on some screens. Did you even see the screen shots I posted a link to? And I'm being 100% truthful, it looks much worse in person.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by ApolloBoy Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Ziggy587 wrote:ApolloBoy, you seem like you're defending the SNES mini, like what was said about it you took personal offense to. Know one cares if that's the model you wanna use for whatever reason, we're just trying to be objective here.

In a way I am, I've modded a ton of SNES minis during the time I was doing mods and repairs and I've come to familiarize myself with the system and its quirks. I still think it's a great system and to hear people compare it to those cheap clones and call it garbage is rather ridiculous.

Ziggy587 wrote:Know one cares if that's the model you wanna use for whatever reason, we're just trying to be objective here.

Trying being the key word.

Ziggy587 wrote:The colors are a little off so just adjust the TV settings. OK, but what if my TV doesn't allow for separate settings on each input, or what if I'm sharing that input with other sources. It's really, REALLY annoying to have to adjust the settings every time I wanna use the SNES, then have to adjust them back after I'm done. I wanna be able to calibrate my TV/monitor and then never touch the settings again.

Fair enough I suppose. In that case I'm sure there's a way to perform some kind of mod that would decrease the brightness levels and/or color temp to the point where it's on par with the older models. The SNES mini does output RGB signals that are slightly hotter than normal, which I'm fine with but might bother others. That's something which is easily fixed by using 100 ohm resistors instead of 75 ohm ones.

Ziggy587 wrote:But this "sharper image" can actually be brutal on some screens. Did you even see the screen shots I posted a link to? And I'm being 100% truthful, it looks much worse in person.

Hm, how do you know that it's the SNES and not just your upscaler? In my experience, using RGB on other systems produces a picture that's just as sharp as the 1chip/mini, have you tried other systems through RGB or component using your setup? I'm thinking your upscaler might be introducing some image artifacting that wouldn't otherwise be there.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:16 pm

ApolloBoy wrote:
Zing wrote:3) ghosting - I'm not sure if the white levels are causing the ghosting, but it is there. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I've tried several TV sets from CRT to LCD and its always there.

I've noticed this as well, but I have a feeling this is caused by the RGB and S-video mods, which normally just call for 75 ohm resistors. I'll try experimenting one of these days with adding capacitors to see if it helps with the ghosting. I don't remember if it shows up in composite, I haven't used composite on my SNES mini in a while.


The ghosting has nothing to do with RGB vs. S-Video vs. Composite vs. RF or whatever. Seeing as how the 1CHIP Model 1 and the Mini are both the same (chipsets are same, only real difference is the size of the PCB board) then I tried RGB, S-Video, and Composite on my 1CHIP Model 1 (which does not need modding) and lo' and behold, the ghosting was there, plain as day. And guess what? RGB showed it MORE, not less.


ApolloBoy wrote:
Ziggy587 wrote:The colors are a little off so just adjust the TV settings. OK, but what if my TV doesn't allow for separate settings on each input, or what if I'm sharing that input with other sources. It's really, REALLY annoying to have to adjust the settings every time I wanna use the SNES, then have to adjust them back after I'm done. I wanna be able to calibrate my TV/monitor and then never touch the settings again.

Fair enough I suppose. In that case I'm sure there's a way to perform some kind of mod that would decrease the brightness levels and/or color temp to the point where it's on par with the older models. The SNES mini does output RGB signals that are slightly hotter than normal, which I'm fine with but might bother others. That's something which is easily fixed by using 100 ohm resistors instead of 75 ohm ones.


But it still will not fix the ghosting/vertical bar/glitches.
Last edited by SNES_is_the_Best on Mon May 05, 2014 12:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Ziggy587 Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:45 pm

ApolloBoy wrote:Ziggy587 wrote:
Know one cares if that's the model you wanna use for whatever reason, we're just trying to be objective here.

Trying being the key word.


Oh, we're not being objective? And you are?

ApolloBoy wrote:In a way I am, I've modded a ton of SNES minis during the time I was doing mods and repairs and I've come to familiarize myself with the system and its quirks. I still think it's a great system and to hear people compare it to those cheap clones and call it garbage is rather ridiculous.


So let's be objective... The 1chip can EASILY be compared to clones consoles. I mean, the 1chip design IS a clone of the original SNES chip set. Fact. Nintendo consolidated 3 separate chips into one, along with whatever other additions and subtractions. It clearly does not produce the same results as the original chip set. Fact. Whether it's better or worse, well, I guess that can be a matter of opinion. As well as the fact that we all have different TVs and monitors, all calibrated different, we're all gonna be seeing different stuff anyway. But let's at least agree on the facts. It isn't what was original designed for the SNES, and it not unlike what you might find in a clone console. It is what it is.

ApolloBoy wrote:That's something which is easily fixed by using 100 ohm resistors instead of 75 ohm ones.


That isn't a good idea, from what I understand. I've said it a million times before, and I'll say it again, I'm not a video engineer. But I do know that 75ohm termination is super important. Your TV or monitor's inputs are expecting 75ohm impedance. That's what I've read, and it's backed up by the fact that every time I look at the datasheet for a video encoder the outputs have 75ohm resisters. But if you need any info on this, you're talking to the wrong person.

Either way, the 1chip can't be that great if you either have to mess with TV settings or mod the console to get it to output an acceptable brightness.

ApolloBoy wrote:Hm, how do you know that it's the SNES and not just your upscaler?


...because my older SNESes look great but my 1chip looks like ass. Composite, S-Video, and RGB/YPbPr. The screen shots I linked to compare the the S-ENC component output to my 1chip on the same TV using the same setup. And to be fair, the screen shots were meant for color comparison only (for the YPbPr mod) and not how sharp the image is. If I set up a camera stand and focused perfectly, you would see just how bad the 1chip looks. But I've already said all of this.

ApolloBoy wrote: have you tried other systems through RGB or component using your setup? I'm thinking your upscaler might be introducing some image artifacting that wouldn't otherwise be there.


Yes, I have. Again, I've already said this. I use my N64 with the same setup. S-Video and RGB. I even linked screen shots. And before you or anyone even says it, of COURSE my upscaler isn't the best in the world. But it's at LEAST on par with what you'd find in a decent or high end TV. And being as objective as I can, it's gonna be as good if not better than what most people have in their TVs. So my findings with the 1chip and my 1080p are what most people should expect if they wanna use their SNES mini with a 1080p.

In addition to that, I also have a few other consoles on this same setup. My PS2 (and thus PS1) and my Wii. I wont count the PS3 since it outputs 1080p.

It's obvious that you have not read my posts in this thread. Or at least, haven't read them entirely. I'm not mad or anything, but I don't have the time to sit here and type out everything over and over again. If you go back a little in this thread, I've documented my ordeal pretty well.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by SNES_is_the_Best Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:54 pm

Ziggy587 wrote:It's obvious that you have not read my posts in this thread. Or at least, haven't read them entirely. I'm not mad or anything, but I don't have the time to sit here and type out everything over and over again. If you go back a little in this thread, I've documented my ordeal pretty well.


This is where I'm getting at myself. I'm actually already sick and tired of retyping and/or rephrasing the same thing over and over. I honestly do not know what else I can possibly say or do. Its as if all our words and energy have been completely wasted.

But whatever....right?
Last edited by SNES_is_the_Best on Mon May 05, 2014 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by theclaw Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:18 pm

SNES_is_the_Best wrote:This is where I'm getting at myself. I'm actually already sick and tired of retyping and/or rephrasing the same thing over and over. I honestly do not know what else I can possibly say or do. Its as if all our words and energy have been completely wasted.


Well let's test my initial suggestion then.
Take an SHVC-CPU-01, reduce its smoothing only, to a level between it and the 1chip.

This way the color levels or any other 1chip effects are not introduced.
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