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Jamisonia
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Tue May 08, 2012 10:28 pm

Drakon, I have worked with an a few SNES jrs doing s-video mods, and I have seen the vertical line in them everytime. Its not as drastic as the first generation SNES, but they are still there. You can't see it when using RF with the original SNES.

I am seriously considering the switchless region mod. I know I could use a flashcart, but what if I want to play an original PAL game? It makes my SNES an universal SNES.

Ziggy, I don't think the SNES being NTSC has anything to do with component input availability in the U.S. When the SNES was designed in the late 80s I do not believe component input was even a standard yet. I do know that component input did not become widely used until DVD utilized it. That was 1996. The Dreamcast opted for VGA output for its 480p mode over Component. The fact that we found YPbPr existing in the Super Nintendo is dumb luck. It shouldn't be there. There is no reason for it to be there. The fact that not only is it there, but it doesn't need any extra components? Thats even luckier. The ColecoVision outputs component, but nobody has really figured out a way to format it right so that the colors all look right. Face it man, we got damn lucky with this find. It hasn't been discovered until 2012, because it shouldn't exist.

I'll be doing this component mod soon, and I'll report the results. Now only if we can accidently find that the N64 has component output.
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Ziggy587
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Ziggy587 Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 pm

Jamisonia wrote:The fact that we found YPbPr existing in the Super Nintendo is dumb luck. It shouldn't be there. There is no reason for it to be there. The fact that not only is it there, but it doesn't need any extra components? Thats even luckier.


Speaking of that... Remember what that guy from the Sega-16 forum said? He had the S-ENC and said straight Reds, Blues and Greens looked sharp but everything else was washed (or something like that). I have the S-ENC B, so it might have some improvements. Like I said, I didn't do much investigating, but for the ~10 minutes I watched Madden 94 cycle with no controller, I didn't notice anything looking off. Quite good, actually. So you said you have the S-ENC, right? I'll be interested in your results.

Jamisonia wrote:I am seriously considering the switchless region mod.


You should go for it! If you already have the 50/60Hz and CIC on/off switches installed, it'll be really easy to upgrade to the SuperCIC. You already have all the hard parts done.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Drakon Wed May 09, 2012 7:35 am

Really the snes 2 has the bar of doom? Doesn't show up on my tv at all. I also have a later model 1 that I'm pretty sure has the s-rgb that I've never seen the bar on.

Ziggy, the guy who said that stuff about the colours is guntz he's a jack@ss and a moron. He doesn't know what he's talking about. I wouldn't consider his opinion to hold any merit.

I'm a collector too, but I still use my flash cart instead of adding switches to play region locked stuff. Supercic sounds like a great idea if it eliminates the need to work those stupid switches.

And like jamisonia said it's dumb luck that these older systems have this ability. But you were talking about building "the holy grail of sness" so if you're looking for absolute perfection then the model 1 isn't where you'll find it. If you're looking for most bang for your buck then the model 1 is great.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Drakon Wed May 09, 2012 8:07 am

I decided to wire up this component video mod today so I opened up my really old looking super famicom which I'd never opened before. Turns out my old sfc is a really cool version of the snes, in fact it seems to be the very first revision. The board revision is dated 1990. It has the sound module so now I have a sound module (not sure what I can do with it). So the sound module is indeed in the early versions because you don't get any earlier than this sfc. This sfc pcb doesn't even have the masking they used to cover traces after the first revision. I can actually see all the traces on the pcb. This thing's so friggen old they didn't even bother re-labelling the video encoder it says right on the video encoder "ba6592f". Guess I'll wire up component to it for kicks once I'm done figuring out what I can use the sound thing for.
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Ziggy587
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Ziggy587 Wed May 09, 2012 9:00 am

Drakon wrote:Really the snes 2 has the bar of doom? Doesn't show up on my tv at all. I also have a later model 1 that I'm pretty sure has the s-rgb that I've never seen the bar on.


That's the thing about the vertical bar, every one has reported different stories about it. Some people can see it more when they turn the brightness on their TV up, others see it more when they turn the brightness down, but in both cases, not vise versa. I've never seen (or noticed) the vertical bar until I messed with the brightness using a game that was recommended to easily get a vertical bar. No one was able to agree on how they see the bar (what model systems, TVs, games, etc). Therefor it's impossible to determine what causes it.

With your SNES mini, have you watched the intro to Final Fantasy VI? If not, try that. And if you can't see the bar, turn the brightness either up or down and see if you can get it visible.

Drakon wrote:I'm a collector too, but I still use my flash cart instead of adding switches to play region locked stuff. Supercic sounds like a great idea if it eliminates the need to work those stupid switches.


Yeah, the SuperCIC is basically a mod chip for the SNES, it's great. I forget exactly how you control it, but you can lock it in a certain mode so it'll defualt to it. But it can detect which CIC is in the game and switch accordingly. It can also automatically switch video modes, and it'll even switch back to NTSC for you if you wanna play a PAL game in 60Hz. It's smart enough to fool the games that check which video mode the console is set to. It'll boot in 50Hz for roughly 9 seconds then auto switch to 60Hz. And since you use the reset button to manually control it, the author even created a specially condition for the PowerPak (so you can access the save menu). I believe if you tap the reset button twice quickly, the SuperCIC will tell the console to reset for X amount of time so it can access the save menu. That's even better than having to hold the reset button yourself! :lol:

The only thing is that it's designed for SNESes with two PPUs. It might be adaptable to the one PPU models, but I haven't bothered to think it out. The author might have to create a separate version. I don't know if there was talk of that, I haven't kept up with the long thread on NESdev. But the 1 PPU models use a different frequency crystal oscillator, so you would have to install a second oscillator and be able to switch to it in order to switch video modes.

Personally, I don't have any PAL carts and I probably would just use a flash cart. None of my NTSC SNESes have region mods (except being able to play SFC carts which doesn't really count). And my PAL SNES is stock, but I think I'll keep it that way for testing purposes (my one TV accepts a 50 and 60Hz signal, who would of thought?).

Drakon wrote:Turns out my old sfc is a really cool version of the snes, in fact it seems to be the very first revision. The board revision is dated 1990. It has the sound module so now I have a sound module (not sure what I can do with it). So the sound module is indeed in the early versions because you don't get any earlier than this sfc.


See, this is where the revisions get confusing. The order of the encoders is clear (BA6592F, S-ENC, S-ENC B, S-RGB) but everything else isn't now. Your board is stamped 1990 and has the sound module. But check out these two SNESes...

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/9789 ... 3small.jpg

http://mikejmoffitt.com/images/snesypbpr/IMG_2367.JPG

They are both stamped 1992 and do NOT have the sound module. BUT! I have a SNES stamped 1993 with the sound module. So... they took it out and then put it back in? I'm gonna have to open that SNES again just to make sure it says 1993. I mean, I remember 100% that it does say 93, but the sound module thing doesn't make sense!

Drakon wrote:It has the sound module so now I have a sound module (not sure what I can do with it).


I think you can do it on any revision of the sound chip(s), but have you tried the digital audio mod? I would love to try it myself, but I only have an old receiver that doesn't have digital inputs.


edit: So the guy that posted the thread on Sega-16, I just found his YouTube video for this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-C59SAVUow

There's a few comments that talk about using resistors.

The encoder datasheet application states that R-Y and B-Y need a 1K pull down resistor...Tried it and works great on my 50" LCD


Don't know what this other guy is talking about...

Just tried it, at first I got very little color, almost monochrome picture on my 29" Samsung CRT. Once I added 75 ohm resistors on each line I got a great picture. There's a bit of noise on the video when the background is mostly black, though. I wonder where does it come from.


Drakon and Jam, you guys have the BA6592F and S-ENC respectively. I'm curious to see if your results will differ from mine with the S-ENC B.
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Drakon
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Drakon Wed May 09, 2012 11:07 am

With the snes mini I've done the final fantasy 6 test and still not seen it. I tried the original ff3 cart, powerpak version, had the brightness cranked, never saw it. This is on a crt. Anyway I wired up component video to my first model sfc...it works but it looks terrible. I had to turn the tv colour and brightness all the way up and still the colours looked a bit weak. It looks like it needs an amp or something. Also it still looked pretty blurry, probably because of the rgb coming from the ppu being blurry in the first place. I didn't notice the vertical bar, then I plugged in my powerpak and it made the bar green and then I could see it. So the bar is indeed in component video.

Also now that this is back up and running:

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?144910-More-Than-One-Version-of-The-SNES-Model-1

"Every S-ENC are pin compatible"

Maybe nintendo took the module out and put it back in? Had some spare ones laying around needed to use them? I know I can add optical audio to any model I wasn't talking about that. I was thinking more along the lines of removing my sound module and building a spc player....but it's kind of pointless I think a powerpak or some flash carts can play spc files. Something about that detachable sound module just screams "take me out and turn me into a dedicated piece of hardware".

I got the same noise but also my picture looked...dark....I'll try adding 75 ohm resistors and see if that fixes things. Where on earth did you find that 75 ohm resistor thing?
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Ziggy587
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Ziggy587 Wed May 09, 2012 11:45 am

Hmm. So right now I'm guessing that the S-ENC B outputs a cleaner component signal than the original BA6592F.

Here's what other people have reported:
Michael J Moffitt (aka Bibin from Sega-16): Has "S-ENC" encoder, reports the picture is "brilliant" and did not use any post-encoder circuit.

Guntz from Sega-16: Has "S-ENC" encoder. As far as I can tell, he has the exact same revision SNES that Bibin has. Reports that the "video is a little odd to me though. Straight reds, blues and greens are pretty vibrant, but regular graphics tend to look a bit pale." Also did not use any post-encoder circuit.

QoXxXoQ from Youtube: "The encoder datasheet application states that R-Y and B-Y need a 1K pull down resistor...Tried it and works great on my 50" LCD" but does not state the version encoder used.

133Mhz from YouTube: "Just tried it, at first I got very little color, almost monochrome picture on my 29" Samsung CRT. Once I added 75 ohm resistors on each line I got a great picture. There's a bit of noise on the video when the background is mostly black, though." Then later, "Effectively a 1k pull-down on Pb & Pr fixes the colors for good. I still get color flashes when hot-plugging so I assume there must be a DC component on each line. An ordinary cap removes it from the Pb & Pr lines but on the Y it makes the video very unstable and prone to desynchronize." Also does not state the version encoder he used.


So who knows, the S-ENC chip might have just been a rebranded 6592 or maybe it had some revision to it. I'll I can say for sure it that my S-ENC B looked great and I didn't use any resistors or anything.

edit: Yeah, about the sound module... It looks like they took it out then put it back in. So I guess yeah, they might have had some lying around and decided to use them instead of wasting them.

edit: Whoa, after looking at that Digipress thread, the damn video encoder jumps around from revision to revision as well. I have three SNESes with the 6594, two are in front of the cart slot and one is back by the AV out where you normally find the S-RGB. But there's a pic in the Digipress thread with the S-RGB in front of the cart slot. Weird.
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Drakon
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Drakon Wed May 09, 2012 12:03 pm

oh the pull down resistor thing is just 1k ohm between the colour lines and ground. Going to try that.

*edit* still looks washed out

I tried using 75 ohm resistors, I tried using 1k ohm to ground, I tried both, the colours are completely washed out.

And yes the s-enc is a relabelled rohm chip that's been known for a long time.

The schematic in the zip I uploaded is for the first model of the snes / sfc which is what I did the mod to. Looking at the s-video output the s-video indeed goes through a small amp before going to the multi av port. So it looks like I'd need to build some sort of a small amp to get the picture right on this older one. I can try this mod on my slightly newer model and see what results I get.

Opened the second sfc, it's a 1993 one with a s-enc encoder. The encoder doesn't say the rohm part number so I guess only the first runs of sfcs and MAYBE snes systems had the part number written on them. In my first run sfc the encoder doesn't say "s-enc" it just says "ba6592f". The first run sfc is interesting because they weren't trying to hide anything all the later models the pcbs have masking so you can't follow the traces easily as well as re-labelled video encoders.
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Drakon
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Drakon Wed May 09, 2012 12:45 pm

Okay did the exact same mod to my 1993 sns-cpu-gpm-02 japanese super famicom with an encoder that's only labelled as "s-enc" and this time the component video picture looks fine on my tv. I wired this 1993 system up with no resistors or any components just wired straight from the s-enc chip to the tv. So the BA6592F produces absolute garbage component video with the colours being way too weak but the encoders after the 6592 until the s-rgb series seem to be fine with this mod. I also noticed that the bar in the middle of the screen is weaker in my 1993 sfc but it's still noticable. And the component video on my 1993 model is still nowhere near as sharp and clean as the s-video / rgb from my snes mini.

I also pulled out a snes pcb that some idiot way back in the day destroyed and mailed to me just for the sake of getting the multi av port off the back. He broke the pcb for the sake of making it smaller to ship but the board itself is in tact so I kept it for parts / whatever. It's an interesting pcb it's branded 1990, has no masking, has the port for the separate sound module, but this one has a ba6594f encoder. The pcb layout looks the same as my 1990 sfc pcb from a quick glance so it looks like an early model that came with a better video encoder. I guess the 6592 only came in ultra early japanese models.

I'm going to guess that the ba6594f was the most commonly used encoder until the s-rgb encoders.
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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

by Jamisonia Wed May 09, 2012 1:03 pm

I just want to add the S/PDIF mod can be done to either Audio chip, and to all SNESes as far as I know.
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