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Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:46 am
by elmagicochrisg
theclaw wrote:Have you tried an NTSC game? Some PAL SNES games were reprogrammed for 50hz and would have issues at 60hz anywhere. Super Mario World, Super Mario All Stars, Starwing, Pilotwings...

PS2 in-game should be identical in USA and Europe. American PS2 also setting NTSC color at 60hz, PAL color at 50hz.

Older consoles like SNES, Megadrive, SMS, PS1, Saturn, etc, determined color format largely separate from 50hz and 60hz. You must modify both to change both. All of their NTSC models by default would attempt to output the dreaded NTSC50 at 50hz!

Yup that includes Nomad. Hence NTSC50 is part of why composite-based replacement screens are harder to get proper color at 50hz. The original Sega screen was fine since it used RGB.

Just tried Hagane and Phalanx on that SNES. Both are crisp in the console's native 50Hz on a small Sony 4:3 CRT connected with composite (through a SCART header), but are unstable in 60Hz. It's really not game breakingly unstable since it took me hours / days before I even noticed it. But as the saying goes, what has been seen...

I also noticed some images are more unstable than others. Red seems to be the most unstable color, and pure white the least...

I'll see if I have an RGB SCART cable somewhere and report back after I tested that. But I don't think it'll make any difference...

Either I did something wrong afteral (bad connection or something), or the mod indeed makes the console output PAL60 and not true NTSC and the console / game in question doesn't like it. No SNES game was ever made with PAL60 in mind afteral...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:51 am
by theclaw
Is it actually possible for game code to detect the color system?
Doesn't seem likely at all, but I don't think I've heard anyone try to check if such an unusual feature exists...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:02 am
by elmagicochrisg
theclaw wrote:Is it actually possible for game code to detect the color system?
Doesn't seem likely at all, but I don't think I've heard anyone try to check if such an unusual feature exists...

No idea...

I did notice something else now. I tested those games with my PowerPak. Looks like even the boot screen for the PowerPak has this problem. Both yellow and red are unstable, but the menu with all the game names which is black and white is super stable...

Same thing doesn't happen when I use the PowerPak on my unmodded 60Hz SFC...

It's weird that white is stable and the other colors not. Especially since I did not have to tap into any colors like you would have to when doing an RGB or S-video mod for instance. At least not that I can remember. Been quite a while since I did this mod...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:43 am
by elmagicochrisg
No luck with the SCART cable. Looks like the one I have works on SFC, but not on PAL SNES. Picture is almost completely black on my PAL SNES. Was most probably an N64 or GC cable originally. And I'm not gonna fiddle with resistors to make the cable PAL SNES compatible just to test image quality. Probably wasn't going to make a difference anyway...

Oh well...

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:56 pm
by Ziggy587
elmagicochrisg wrote:Either I did something wrong afteral (bad connection or something), or the mod indeed makes the console output PAL60 and not true NTSC and the console / game in question doesn't like it. No SNES game was ever made with PAL60 in mind afteral...


Did you read my post on my findings?

viewtopic.php?p=708959#p708959

You are outputting PAL60. If you want NTSC, you have to lift a leg on the video encoder.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:46 pm
by Ziggy587
I have been working on the SNES YPbPr output, here are my most recent results: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=107496#p107496

Please note that the screen shots are intended for comparing color levels only, and not for sharpness or anything else. It was taken with a camera, without a steady hand and not 100% in focus.

Compared to my old screen shots (no amp): viewtopic.php?p=610567#p610567

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:13 am
by KalessinDB
I've read through... much (if not all) of this thread... and a lot of it flies over my head.

But I have 2 SNESes in my possession. I have a SNS-GPM-CPU-01 variant (I think. It might be the 02, I haven't opened it in a while), and an original SHVC-CPU-01 variant, with the separate sound module. If I'm reading this right, the older system is preferred for this mod, but with the sound module there it doesn't seem like there would really be room to mount the jacks? Unless it's removable, I haven't really looked all that closesly.

Am I right on this? Or should I just go with whatever one has the least noticable vertical line, as I've seen there seems to be no agreement on which mobo variant is best.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:14 am
by SNES_is_the_Best
Drakon wrote:Newer models of the snes have better ppus and better circuits sending a cleaner image quality rgb into the encoder.


No disrespect, but this statement is not 100% accurate. The newer PPU (S-CPUN-A) found in the 1CHIP and Mini has more issues than the original PPU's. These issues are documented in the following post

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=46303

Nevertheless, if there was anyone on the fence about ditching their original model for a newer model, then maybe my post will help them to decide to mod their old SHVC-CPU-01 (or SNS-CPU-GPM-01) for component video and forget about buying the 1CHIP/Mini. They are not worth it. (well, for the reasons I listed anyway)

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:52 am
by Ziggy587
Awesome post, thanks for the info!

I've known about the ultra bright levels of the 1Chip, but I never knew about all the other things like the smoothing filter. It makes perfect sense to me though, after some of my own findings.

After reading time and time again that the 1chip is superior, I decided it would be wise to switch to one on my HDTV for the clearest possible image to be upscaled to 1080p. What I found was that the 1chip looked HEAVILY pixelated on the HDTV, and no matter what input I used (composite, s-vid, RGB-YPbPr). So much so that I actually deemed it unusable and switched back to one of my older SNESes for my HDTV.

And before my "1chip HDTV" findings, I had my older SNES console hooked up to my HDTV via composite. I remember thinking something along the lines of, "This SNES is supposedly blurry and I'm using composite... so why does it look so good?!"

And DKC3 happened to be the game I chose to test everything, so everything you've said makes perfect sense to me. If you look at my screenshots posted here, you can clearly see how jagged the 1chip is compared to the other two. And to be fair, it actually looks worse in person. I took those pics for the sole purpose of color levels, and not anything else, so I didn't spend any time at all focusing or even using a stand (I don't have very steady hands). What that means is the 1chip actually looks better because the picture blurred it slightly. It looks worse in person, and MUCH worse in motion. Just horrible.

So, my point is, the "blur" from the original SNES actually helps a good deal on my HDTV. The 1chip is too jagged to be usable. Of course, the upscaler in my TV probably is far from the best, but even with a high quality upscaler, I just don't see the 1chip looking better than the original model blown up to 1080.

Re: So.... Some SNESes output YPbPr.....

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:39 am
by AppleQueso
Well shit that's an awesome post.