NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Wii

Is the Analogue - Super Nt Worth the Money??

Poll ended at Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:25 pm

Yes - The Analogue SNES Nt's Hardware and Build-Quality is Truly Superior!
4
80%
No - The Analogue SNES Nt is for Pretentious Posers.
1
20%
 
Total votes : 5
User avatar
chuckster
32-bit
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:05 pm

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by chuckster Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:35 am

Segata wrote:I don't have $200 to spend on another SNES just with HDMI as so many other systems I wish I had I just can't get but I like that it has Super Turrican built in. A game I want to play as it looks fucking amazing. These HDMI systems don't appeal to me much when I can just walk in the other room and play the real thing on my CRT where I'm happy with it. Maybe if money was more disposable I'd be into these HD retro consoles. I can't get a credit card even lol because I have zero credit history.


I'm the same way honestly, I was very disappointed when I heard that the Super Nt is HDMI-only. I know they're planning to release a DAC/Scaler that will allow for 240p analog video, but it'll probably be $50+ itself. I'm really glad to see so much attention and praise given to what is by all accounts a great FPGA implementation, but I'm more excited about the prospect of an open implementation down the road that is more geared towards being an authentic SNES replacement.
User avatar
marurun
Moderator
 
Posts: 9541
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 8:51 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by marurun Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:38 am

artphotodude wrote:The issue (I speak on with knowledge because I've OFFICIALLY registered HUNDREDS of items with the US Copyright office) is that you don't actually have copyrights in OpenSource settings because you are building on someone else' design to begin with. If those people who made the emulators used even one line of code from someone else, they don't have any rights to control the code from that point. Case and Point - Half Life was built on the Quake 1 engine after id software made it open-source, but for Valve to close that source-code they had to pay id for the right to do so. You can actually sell products based on OpenSource agreements without giving anything back to the original creator (who made it OpenSource), but it is with the understanding that your modified version of their code remains modifiable by the next person and so forth, since your interest in it is already at the suffrage of the first, original creator of the code.


Here's the thing, registering a copyright doesn't actually require much knowledge about it, but as I am a librarian and have specifically studied copyright, open source, and open access, I do have a pretty big pool of knowledge. So here's the lowdown: unless you've simply mis-stated your case or explained it badly (or I have badly misread), you're mistaken. Open source software (much like Creative Commons works) is dependent upon copyright in order to enforce the license. The MIT license, the BSD license, the GPL 2 and 3 and the LGPL, and so on, all require copyright to function. If someone violates the license, they violate copyright. Without that underlying threat of copyright infringement the license is legally meaningless. GPL requires anyone who uses GPL-licensed code to provide their source modifications either publicly or on-demand. But people don't sign contracts to use GPL code. Contract law thus doesn't bind people. They just use it, without having to make arrangements in advance. What binds them to the GPL is the underlying copyright on the code. Someone who violates the GPL can be sued for copyright violation.

So, who owns those copyrights? It depends on the project. Some projects allow all contributors to retain copyright to their code contributions, but they must also license the code they contribute under the applicable license. For many projects this works fine, but it limits the ability of the project involved to ever change the terms of the license, because approval would have to be granted by every single contributor with code currently wrapped up in the project. So for projects which anticipate a stable license, that's fine. Some projects require transferral of copyright on contributions to a central organization or individual as well as being placed under the applicable license. This arrangement is best for projects with singular or strong leadership and makes it easier for a project to change licenses or license terms. And some projects are dual-licensed, commercially on one side and open source under a compatible license (like Affero GPL) on the other.

Because copyright underlies these OS licenses, folks who use that code are often themselves bound by the terms or are in violation of copyright. GPL, for example, is a self-replicating license. In order to be able to use GPL code and not be in violation of copyright, one must license one's own code modifications under the same GPL license and make that changed code available. Those who do not risk being found in violation of copyright, which could in extreme cases result in the copyright on their own derived works being forfeited. It should be noted that the GPL has been tested in court several times now and has held up, reinforcing that open source licensing is indeed legally valid. What does this mean for our discussion here?

Because Hyperkin used open source emulator code and didn't follow the terms of the licenses involved, they are in violation of copyright. But maybe you've noticed Hyperkin is getting away with it. Well, yeah. Because enforcing copyright in court is troublesome. It requires money and time, and open source authors and contributors don't always have a lot of either. But this isn't unique. Large companies have a habit of running roughshod over copyrights belonging to those with comparatively little power, open source or otherwise. That doesn't make it ethical or right, however. So it's not as simple as Hyperkin not being "nice". The company has acted unethically, using code they know they don't have a legal right to use, but they are pushing the buck because they have correctly assumed that the emulator authors whose copyrights they violated would not have the resources to challenge them. So Hyperkin is an unethical corporate bully. I do not want to give them my money. It also speaks ill of their products. If they are willing to cut corners there, where else will they cut corners?

Your example is also wrong. The Quake 1 source code wasn't open-sourced until late 1999, over a year after Half Life's 1998 release. Valve properly commercially licensed the relevant ID code underpinning their game. And since Quake wasn't open sourced until after, Half Life's use of Quake's code was not bound up in that in any way. The previous license took precedence.

You correctly noted that Bleem! was litigated out of existence, winning in court on every count but then running out of money and folding. Connectix also won in court and did not go out of business as a result. Sony simply bought Virtual Game Station from Connectix and killed off the product. Apple switching to Intel chips is what ultimately killed Connectix.
B/S/T thread
My Classic Games Collection
My Steam Profile
The PC Engine Software Bible Forum, with Shoutbox chat - the new Internet home for PC Engine fandom.
User avatar
marurun
Moderator
 
Posts: 9541
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 8:51 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by marurun Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:44 am

chuckster wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say hardware emulation > software emulation in general. Higan is functionally just as accurate as the Super Nt (Byuu helped Kevtris on parts of the FPGA build in the Nt and Kevtris helped Byuu with other parts of Higan), and it's a little disturbing to see so many people dismiss the hard work that's gone on into software emulation, especially on the SNES.


I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm aware of Byuu's massive efforts with Higan. But considering how much less processing power is required for functional accuracy with FPGA hardware emulation, I would say it's definitely the better way to go. There's no way the folks at Analog could get equivalent accuracy for the cost with software emulation. That said, despite my feelings that FPGA hardware emulation is really the way to go for optimal accuracy, I'm not getting a SuperNT and I'm perfectly happy with my SNES Classic Mini.

chuckster wrote:Along these lines, Digital Foundry's review and comparison of Higan and the Super Nt was the most eye-opening and useful review I've seen. https://youtu.be/LOSQgBEf5ac


I discovered that video just today, merely minutes before seeing you post it here. I'm in the middle of it right now, but it is indeed a great video.
B/S/T thread
My Classic Games Collection
My Steam Profile
The PC Engine Software Bible Forum, with Shoutbox chat - the new Internet home for PC Engine fandom.
User avatar
ElkinFencer10
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 7530
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Henderson, North Carolina

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by ElkinFencer10 Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Shady business practices aside, my Retron 5 has worked great for me, never had any lag that I could perceive, and has yet to have any compatibility issues with any game I've thrown at it.
Exhuminator wrote:Ecchi lords must unite for great justice.

Image
User avatar
alienjesus
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 8217
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:10 pm
Location: London, UK.

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by alienjesus Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:26 pm

ElkinFencer10 wrote:Shady business practices aside, my Retron 5 has worked great for me, never had any lag that I could perceive, and has yet to have any compatibility issues with any game I've thrown at it.


Mine has mostly worked great for me, but has had percievable but not terrible lag in a couple of instances, and had compatability issues with several games I've thrown at it. Updates which fixed one game sometimes broke another.

Games that have caused me issues include Sonic 3 (with and without Sonic & Knuckles), Chiki Chiki Boys and the Adventures of Lolo 2.
Image
User avatar
Ziggy587
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by Ziggy587 Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:31 pm

marurun wrote:
chuckster wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say hardware emulation > software emulation in general. Higan is functionally just as accurate as the Super Nt (Byuu helped Kevtris on parts of the FPGA build in the Nt and Kevtris helped Byuu with other parts of Higan), and it's a little disturbing to see so many people dismiss the hard work that's gone on into software emulation, especially on the SNES.


I'm not trying to be dismissive. I'm aware of Byuu's massive efforts with Higan. But considering how much less processing power is required for functional accuracy with FPGA hardware emulation, I would say it's definitely the better way to go. There's no way the folks at Analog could get equivalent accuracy for the cost with software emulation. That said, despite my feelings that FPGA hardware emulation is really the way to go for optimal accuracy, I'm not getting a SuperNT and I'm perfectly happy with my SNES Classic Mini.


I wouldn't say that one is ultimately better than the other, as they are fundamentally different. But at this time, all things considered, I think FPGA is the best choice for accurate emulation of retro consoles.

Related articles:

http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/2712- ... -3ghz-cpu/

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/ ... -emulator/

Take the case of DICE, the digital integrated circuit emulator. Here is an emulator that works at the transistor level for absolutely perfect recreation of the very first video games ever created. To run Pong at about 5-10fps, DICE requires a 3GHz processor.


One problem we're facing with software emulation (at least in terms of accuracy) is clock speed. In the last decade or so, CPUs are advancing in areas like number of cores, multi threads, cache size, etc, but not so much in terms of clock speed. It seems that software emulation relies on a really fast single core. The above linked article says it takes 3GHz to run bsnes (it's an old article). I believe it takes a LOT more if you throw in emulating an enhancement chip. I can't find the link, but I once read a quote from somewhere that someone guessed it would take about 10GHz to accurately emulate the SA-1 chip.

Even with Higan and the Super NT being on par in terms of accuracy, I think we've peaked in what we can do with software emulation given the current available desktop CPUs. If a SNES takes 3GHz to emulate with 100% accuracy, what will the N64 take? Or PS2 for that matter.

The first Intel CPU to hit 3GHz was around 2004 or 2005 (I'm not trying to be accurate with dates, just trying to make a point). A quick search on NewEgg and it looks like current gen i7's range from 3.6 to 4.6 GHz. That's not a heck of a lot of an increase in clock speed over the past 14 years! What will clock speeds be like in a further 15 years? 6 GHz? The SNES had a 16-bit 3.58 MHz CPU, the N64 had a 64-bit 93.75 Mhz CPU. If the SNES takes 3GHz to emulate with accuracy, I don't even wanna know what the N64 will take!
Image
User avatar
Melek-Ric
24-bit
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:09 am
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by Melek-Ric Fri May 11, 2018 7:29 am

Did anyone get a Super NT? Thoughts?

I plan on getting one when I can.
"Challenging my unit was both foolish and reckless! You are nothing more than my prey... one that is soon to be retired!"
User avatar
Jmustang1968
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 6495
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:51 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by Jmustang1968 Fri May 11, 2018 8:45 am

I have one and I really like it. Games look amazing on my 65" LCD, and audio quality is excellent as well. I will probably end up hacking it to run games off a card at some point.
Tanooki
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 6947
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:06 pm

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by Tanooki Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 am

I got one and I'm quite impressed with it, along with the bluetooth matching controller too. It's the first time simulated scanlines didn't suck to me either as they're just terrible on computer so I do leave them on (same with the HiDEF NES enabled top loader I have too (both kevtris designed.)

Super Turrican DC and the sequel are pretty entertaining too, never been much of a fan of the original but it clicked for some reason this go around.
User avatar
Sarge
Next-Gen
 
Posts: 7247
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:08 pm

Re: Analogue - Super Nt

by Sarge Fri May 11, 2018 11:48 am

I wouldn't mind one, but I have noticed that there have been a slew of bug fixes for games that didn't work right, which gives me pause about all their accuracy claims. I know they're fixing it, certainly, but all the marketing speak was like, "the most accurate thing ever!" I can kinda understand why byuu was upset about all the hype. I am glad that kevtris seems to be addressing issues in a timely manner, though.

If I played more on my HDTV, I'd want one like yesterday. Since much of my SNES gaming occurs on the real system on a big CRT, though, I can afford to wait a bit.
Return to Nintendo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests