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 Post subject: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:59 am 
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This discussion was taking up a lot of space in the "Random Thoughts" thread (starting here) so I am taking the suggestion given there to spin it out into a new thread in the Off-Topic/Whatever section.

That discussion was quite civil and I'd like to think it will remain so here! Please no name-calling, homophobia, religion-bashing, etc.

Ok, so I have a few questions for anyone who has explained they "disapprove" of homosexuality:

1) Is this disapproval strictly grounded in (Christian) religious teachings?

If so, I really don't see sound Biblical reasoning for "disapproving" of homosexuality. The New Testament's writings on the subject are responding to what Paul sees as social problems of sexuality grounded in sensuality and lust, and the Old Testament's references groups it in with other non-kosher behavior such as mixing threads. The fact that several major mainline denominations perform gay marriages and ordain gay ministers seems to suggest that any interpretation of these passages as proof of the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality itself is far from ironclad, and perhaps more reflective of church tradition than of sound theology.

2. How do you reconcile your disapproval of homosexuality as a "choice" with scientific evidence that supports the biological/genetic existence of homosexuality?

I'm referring here to both the widespread prevalence of same-sex mating in nature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an ... l_behavior) and the ongoing genetic work which is pointing more and more towards hereditary markers of homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_an ... ge_studies). If the answer is "science can be wrong" or "the science isn't good enough" can you explain how much or what kind of scientific proof it would take for you to change your mind?

3. What is meant by "disapproval" anyway?

Is your disapproval of homosexuality sort of like " I disapprove of that shirt" or more like "I disapprove of arson"? Is it somewhere in between ("I disapprove of you burning that shirt")? Is it disapproving of something that you see as harmful to others like theft, or is it disapproval of a personal behavior like biting one's nails?

The concern I have with "disapproval" comes from how people draw on these beliefs to act in such a way as to publicly discriminate. Voting against legislation that would extend rights to gay couples, firing/dismissing people from jobs for being gay, refusing permits for gay bars, violence, etc. - these are often how people voice their "disapproval". A vote is not as visceral as a beating, obviously, but they seem to be grounded in the same "disapproval" mindset, often justified through an interpretation of the Bible/biology that is anything but authoritative. "Disapproval" may not be the same as "hate" but, culturally and politically, they often function in the same way...

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:14 am 
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One argument that I can't stand in regards to this issue is "I don't hate homosexuals, but I don't think they should be allowed to (insert human right here)." This is a blatant contradiction; if you truly don't hate homosexuals, then you would want them to have the same rights as straight people.

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:33 am 
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Whenever I go to church, which is lately only for weddings and funerals, the speaker always seems to be harping on about homosexuals gaining more rights back. Stinks of hypocracy to me. As far as I can see, the bible makes little real reference to subject.

I'm an odd one I suppose. My closest friend of 14 years is homosexual, and I believe that its a free world and everything, but overly camp men really annoy me. I've nothing against their existence or anything they just wind me up.

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:47 am 
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1) No and Yes. Certain sects will always consider homosexuality as an abomination of the flesh, but even in the strict Lutheran Church I've seen a ton of more open mindedness, especially from people in the 50-70age range. The core value of love thy neighbor trumps it all.

Personally I've never felt icky about homosexuality. I know heterosexual atheist peers who still act like middle schoolers and call each other "fags" as an insult. Wish they'd grow up.

B) Don't have to.

3) What baffles me is not disapproval, but the guys who say "He doesn't know what he's missing". My homo homies understand that due to religious beliefs some people will flat out reject their lifestyle, but the guys who persist on repeating "I don't get it" pisses them off.

F) I'm fine with pda. Actually find it super cute anytime I see a couple holds hands, or wrap their arms around each other. But anything more than a closed mouth kiss, be it homo or hetero, please keep that at home. Unless you are Natalie Portman, she gets a pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:02 am 
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Curlypaul wrote:
As far as I can see, the bible makes little real reference to subject.


IIRC there are some verses in the old testament ("thou shalt not lie with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination" or something like that; also the sodomites proclaiming that they wanted to have sex with the angels in Lot's house), but Jesus never touched on the subject himself. there might be some in the letters from the apostles in the new testament. i don't really remember. it's been a while since i've been coerced to give a flying fuck about religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:31 am 
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aaron wrote:
Curlypaul wrote:
As far as I can see, the bible makes little real reference to subject.


IIRC there are some verses in the old testament ("thou shalt not lie with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination" or something like that; also the sodomites proclaiming that they wanted to have sex with the angels in Lot's house), but Jesus never touched on the subject himself. there might be some in the letters from the apostles in the new testament. i don't really remember. it's been a while since i've been coerced to give a flying fuck about religion.



I believe the bible condemns homosexuality twice, and condemns divorce several times.


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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:41 am 
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aaron wrote:
Curlypaul wrote:
As far as I can see, the bible makes little real reference to subject.


IIRC there are some verses in the old testament ("thou shalt not lie with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination" or something like that; also the sodomites proclaiming that they wanted to have sex with the angels in Lot's house), but Jesus never touched on the subject himself. there might be some in the letters from the apostles in the new testament. i don't really remember. it's been a while since i've been coerced to give a flying fuck about religion.

If I recall right, the issue with Sodom was not so much the homosexual behavior as them imposing themselves on a guest. It's the same passage where Lot offers up his underage daughters to placate the mob. Definitely a case of values dissonance compared to today.

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:44 pm 
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So, what I want to know is if anyone here has any problem with homosexuality outside of religious interpretation. What other reasons could possibly sound even close to reasonable?

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:48 pm 
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lisalover1 wrote:
So, what I want to know is if anyone here has any problem with homosexuality outside of religious interpretation. What other reasons could possibly sound even close to reasonable?


I am a bit surprised that none of the 3-4 people who chimed in yesterday have addressed any of the questions I posed so far today. I tried to set it up as a welcoming chance for honest dialogue, as I am genuinely interested in how one substantiates and/or exercises "disapproval".

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 Post subject: Re: Homosexuality
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:57 pm 
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dsheinem wrote:
I am a bit surprised that none of the 3-4 people who chimed in yesterday have addressed any of the questions I posed so far today. I tried to set it up as a welcoming chance for honest dialogue, as I am genuinely interested in how one substantiates and/or exercises "disapproval".



Sorry man, can't express disapproval of something I don't disapprove of.


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