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saturnfan
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by saturnfan Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:54 pm

Flake, modern day democratic republics, the ones you are referring to (as opposed to a true democracy), almost never go to war with each other. There is bounds of evidence to support this.

However, democratic republics do go to war all the time, so your point is half valid.
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by Flake Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:28 pm

You're mistaking the outcome of nuclear proliferation as a natural aspect of modern democracy, Saturnfan. Look at how often democracies went to war before 1949. Since 1812 there have been more than twenty full blown wars between democratic nations.
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ZeroAX
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by ZeroAX Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:29 pm

saturnfan wrote:Flake, modern day democratic republics, the ones you are referring to (as opposed to a true democracy), almost never go to war with each other. There is bounds of evidence to support this.

However, democratic republics do go to war all the time, so your point is half valid.


Yeah, but the irony is that Hitler was elected. The problem with democracy is that during times of hardship, voters can be taken advantage of (again, see Hitler). I know using examples of the past we know were evil isn't getting the point across, but think of it like this. European politicians actually considered Hitler someone they could bargain with. The man who said "They stole my war", when the allies gave Germany back some privileges and territory they had lost due to WW1.

How many modern governments (of free nations) are illegally elected through ballot fraud, we'll never know (at least not in our lifetime).

@kingmohd84

No, I'm saying that when people from specific countries arrive, and they are 99.9% men and 1 in a thousand a woman, then we can't accept these people, cause they'll never be able to integrate into society. Plus as I said, they say that they are seeking asylum cause of war, natural disaster and evil regimes, and I'm asking if you are running from those terrible things, don't you have a lover/mother/sister/daughter something to help escape as well? Why the fuck then aren't they with you?

EDIT

@Flake

So true what you said.
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by CFFJR Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:37 pm

ZeroAX wrote:How many modern governments (of free nations) are illegally elected through ballot fraud, we'll never know (at least not in our lifetime).


That's one thing among many that I try hard not to think about.
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corn619
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by corn619 Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:48 pm

ZeroAX wrote:
saturnfan wrote:Flake, modern day democratic republics, the ones you are referring to (as opposed to a true democracy), almost never go to war with each other. There is bounds of evidence to support this.

However, democratic republics do go to war all the time, so your point is half valid.


Yeah, but the irony is that Hitler was elected. The problem with democracy is that during times of hardship, voters can be taken advantage of (again, see Hitler). I know using examples of the past we know were evil isn't getting the point across, but think of it like this. European politicians actually considered Hitler someone they could bargain with. The man who said "They stole my war", when the allies gave Germany back some privileges and territory they had lost due to WW1.

How many modern governments (of free nations) are illegally elected through ballot fraud, we'll never know (at least not in our lifetime).

@kingmohd84

No, I'm saying that when people from specific countries arrive, and they are 99.9% men and 1 in a thousand a woman, then we can't accept these people, cause they'll never be able to integrate into society. Plus as I said, they say that they are seeking asylum cause of war, natural disaster and evil regimes, and I'm asking if you are running from those terrible things, don't you have a lover/mother/sister/daughter something to help escape as well? Why the fuck then aren't they with you?

EDIT

@Flake

So true what you said.

Well, if someone here can come up with a better form of government please indulge me. Because so far I'm hearing nothing but complaints and zero solutions.
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by Dylan Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:52 pm

corn619 wrote:Well, if someone here can come up with a better form of government please indulge me. Because so far I'm hearing nothing but complaints and zero solutions.

Winston Churchill said it best: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by AppleQueso Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Dylan wrote:
corn619 wrote:Well, if someone here can come up with a better form of government please indulge me. Because so far I'm hearing nothing but complaints and zero solutions.

Winston Churchill said it best: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."


One of my favorite quotes. That one and "I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum"
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by vash23n Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:59 pm

ZeroAX wrote:
kingmohd84 wrote:I personally have a problem with Europe and America

the two continents are like pro human rights, and equality
but then they get upset from other cultures, I am talking here about Caucasian people

If you don't want any one to come over and take your citizenship and as many rights as you do in your own country, why did you set the laws there in the first place?

I would be very understanding if they said we won't let others live here and we will not naturalize any one because Britain is for the English and Italy for Italians. That is fair and true.
but they set democratic laws , equality for everyone, then a huge sector is upset about other cultures.

This includes Muslims world wide migrating to Europe, this is a huge issue now. Indians in Britain, Mexicans and Africans in America.


Because we have many migrants from China. They integrate into society. We have many migrants from Southern Africa. They integrate into society. We have many migrants from the middle East. They don't integrate into society.

And how the fuck we expect them to, I don't know. Africans and Chinese are 50/50 when it comes to sex. They come here with their families, with their lovers, to find a better place to live. And that's what they do. People see families wanting to live here for their entire lives, they accept them and welcome them.

On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen a woman from the middle East. The only female muslims I've seen are from Turkey, and aren't really economic migrants (at least not in my country). How the fuck are so many men supposed to be integrated into society, when the base of a society is family?

And furthermore, unless they are really asylum seekers (though as the Italian's stated, how the fuck is leaving a country which just had its dictatorship overthrown fall into asylum I don't know) I don't think men who come here in the 10 of thousands asking to be allowed into the EU, because their lives are in peril in their own countries, yet none of them happen to have a family/lover/daughter, should be accepted, cause if living in those countries would be dangerous for them, how fucking dangerous would it be for women, who have it worse?

Once this demographic problem is fixed (meaning only accepting women who seek refuge in Europe for a few years) they will be able to integrate into society.

Unless they start living like Europeans (sending their children to European schools, living by European society's standards), like so many Africans and Chinese I've met, they won't be accepted into society.


I lived in Philly for a while and there were many men and women from the Middle East in my neighborhood. There were also many men and women from Korea and Russia. Of the Middle Eastern men and women, I probably saw 4 women for every 1 man and they were all very very nice, very nicely integrated into our neighborhood, well except with those who could not look past their clothing and cultural differences. We are currently fighting a war in the Middle East and living in a time where Islam is, unfortunately, cast in a negative light. It is not surprising that there are issues with Middle Easterners integrating into American society as there is a lot of prejudice against Muslims that I have seen. I am also not surprised at how defensive a lot of Middle Easterners are in this country due to the racism they face. The Japanese living in America did not have it that easy during and after WWII either.

EDIT: As for the current events of kingmodh's country, I like hearing what someone from the country in question has to say even if it is different than what is on the news. Taking all stories together is the best way to get a complete picture of what is going on and one of the only ways to get around bias (maybe not completely, but it is a start).
Last edited by vash23n on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by Flake Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:03 am

corn619 wrote:Well, if someone here can come up with a better form of government please indulge me. Because so far I'm hearing nothing but complaints and zero solutions.


All of a sudden a lot of my late night conversations with Kingmohd have come in handy.

Democracy works great for nations with European backgrounds. It's what we know. It's all we know. We all (mostly) agree to play by the rules.

In a lot of these countries, they do not have a tradition of fair democracy. They have extremely different cultures from what most of us know. Just assuming that Democracy is the automatic answer is foolhardy because you are not taking into account the people who will have to make up that democracy.

Most of these states house civilizations that number among the oldest on the Earth - if they'd wanted democracy or thought it might work, they probably would have figured it out a long time before the US, England, or France.

The key is for these protesters to find a new form of government that will work the best for their people, even if it's not what a lot of us would prefer.
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corn619
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Re: So the Islamic world is kind of falling apart...

by corn619 Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:10 am

Flake wrote:
corn619 wrote:Well, if someone here can come up with a better form of government please indulge me. Because so far I'm hearing nothing but complaints and zero solutions.


All of a sudden a lot of my late night conversations with Kingmohd have come in handy.

Democracy works great for nations with European backgrounds. It's what we know. It's all we know. We all (mostly) agree to play by the rules.

In a lot of these countries, they do not have a tradition of fair democracy.
I'm going to quote your earlier post in saying, "How do you come to that conclusion? There is no empirical data to support that." I say that since I don't know of any middle eastern democracy.
Last edited by corn619 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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