Anyone else want a genre-shift back to RPGs?

[Xeogred]

I want turn based battle systems to make a comeback. Replaying Lost Odyssey, and loving it.

[ZeoDefender]

I know this is going to be a rather controversial opinion, but I think the JRPG has served its purpose and should be put to rest. It was a fantastic and revolutionary genre for the time, but video games have evolved to a point where the standard JRPG is no longer needed. Let it die.

This might sound crazy, but God of War is pretty much the natural evolution of Dragon Quest. You're some random dude running through the world meeting various people, receiving quests, leveling up, gaining new abilities, and customizing your character to better fight the forces of evil (or good sometimes in the case of Kratos). The only real difference is that Dragon Quest's combat is abstracted into a turn based system while God of War does this in glorious real time. In the reality of the game, the nameless hero of Dragon Quest is fighting in the same way as Kratos, but due to technological limitations at the time we weren't able to see it.

Now, of course, there's something to be said for a nice, slow paced turn based system rather than an adrenaline rush. It's nice to have a strategic system where you can take your time to plan out your moves and handle combat with your brain rather than your reflexes. I completely agree with this, but let's be honest. The JRPG combat system is about as intellectually stimulating as throwing cards into a hat. Sure, you might get some satisfaction from the mindless and repetitive activity, but that's about it. There is no depth here. In order to have real strategic depth you need to add more variables into the combat system. You need positioning, terrain, range, flanking, weather conditions, etc. You need a SRPG.

I do still play JRPGs and enjoy them, but with every JRPG I've played I've always said to myself "I really wish this game were a(n) Action RPG/Strategy RPG/Visual Novel instead."

[Dylan]

The problem with JRPGs isn't that the system is inherently limiting, it's that the genre simply failed to demonstrate long term development. For every Chrono Trigger you had several "select fight" RPGs. A turn based battle system has plenty of potential in that it makes every action an important asset, keeping and maintaining momentum in a fight requires much more strategy because every turn is matched. The problem is that far too many games just followed conventions. Fighters used fight, mages used their strongest spells, healers healed. That was it. The reason that the genre became stagnant is that too often games failed to get creative or rework the system in a big enough way. The genre got safe. Really, this is the tendency for any genre that's enjoying its time in the limelight (shooters are feeling these growing pains right now).

The development of JRPGs slowed so much that people grew tired of the same old same old. We just didn't get enough titles like SMT Nocturne that actually managed to really make the system its own. JRPG combat systems can absolutely be complex and interesting. Look at games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy III, Shadow Hearts, Seiken Densetsu 3, SMT 3, etc etc. All of these games manage to stand out in some way or another and present great mechanics while absolutely adhering to general JRPG conventions. The problem with JRPGs is simply that they got complacent and then newer shinier things came along when they weren't looking.

[ZeoDefender]

Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III were masterfully done examples of the genre, but their combat systems still had the same inherent flaws that plague every JRPG. Adding combos and character classes definitely spiced up the combat systems, but they were still nothing more than "select fight" RPGs.

[Dylan]

Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy III were masterfully done examples of the genre, but their combat systems still had the same inherent flaws that plague every JRPG. Adding combos and character classes definitely spiced up the combat systems, but they were still nothing more than "select fight" RPGs.

I disagree on this. You have to realize that preparation for battle is a huge part of the complexity of JRPGs. In the case of these two games it's all about deciding what strengths you want to have to work with in order to handle whatever challenge lies ahead. Besides that, never in a million years are you going to be able to beat Chrono Trigger or FFIII by just selecting fight. The beauty of the tech system in Chrono Trigger is that in order to gain powerful attacks you must give up the valuable resources of time and turns. This makes the system dynamic, can you afford to give up the chance to defend yourself for an all out attack? sometimes you have to change your plans because you lose a character or suddenly need to make use of a different ability (like defend if one character is weak, or maybe you decide to cancel a double tech because you've whittled the enemies down and want to conserve mp). By limiting characters to having specific elements and tools it was wise (or you were forced) to frequently change your party's lineup, thus making you frequently change your playstyle to adapt with whatever pieces you had to work with. Fight was a powerful command in Chrono Trigger, but in no way could you get by without utilizing the more complex tools at your disposal.

Granted FFIII had a lot of characters that had the job of selecting fight, but managing your party's tools and stat progression was very important and especially your resources. Your magic users didn't just throw their spells around because they had severely limited stock. You didn't get the luxury of wiping out every group of enemies with firaga and patching your party up with healaga every turn because you had to stretch those resources to their maximum potential. While older JRPGs didn't have the tech to create the complex systems and customization we have today, they created dungeon crawling tension and resource management that few modern games even go for. That's where the old school JRPG stands out. Even if fighting classes didn't have unique abilities yet, everything else about the meta game of something like FFIII was very strong because you had an incredible amount of control over what strengths you brought into battle. Maybe you wanted a more physical party (which is totally doable), but you'd better be ready to adapt when you got to a boss like Hein. The complexity of these JRPGs was all about resource management, and if a game was good it had a system that utilized that.

Finally, if you look at the limitations of a game like FFIII, you have to realize that a lot of that was from technology. Now that tech is so much more flexible, you have the resources to put in even more elements. Look at a game like SMT3. Not only does that game make it a good idea to constantly evolve and adapt your party, but you get things like the press turn system with its element system. The buff and debuff system in that game was amazing. Random enemies weren't just pushovers. Fighters didn't just use fight, because that game made the fight command weak. Fighters had powerful physical abilities, but they cost health so they were impossible to spam. Likewise magic users had limited mp and magic restoring items were scarce. Every action counted and every resource mattered. There was no using the analogue stick to move out of the way of an enemy attack next turn, every move was expensive. SMT3 is a perfect example of how the JRPG formula can continue to evolve past the conventions of early FF or DQ.

[BoneSnapDeez]

Now, of course, there's something to be said for a nice, slow paced turn based system rather than an adrenaline rush. It's nice to have a strategic system where you can take your time to plan out your moves and handle combat with your brain rather than your reflexes. I completely agree with this, but let's be honest. The JRPG combat system is about as intellectually stimulating as throwing cards into a hat. Sure, you might get some satisfaction from the mindless and repetitive activity, but that's about it. There is no depth here. In order to have real strategic depth you need to add more variables into the combat system. You need positioning, terrain, range, flanking, weather conditions, etc. You need a SRPG.

I do still play JRPGs and enjoy them, but with every JRPG I've played I've always said to myself "I really wish this game were a(n) Action RPG/Strategy RPG/Visual Novel instead."

It seems like you simply prefer SRPGs to regular RPGs. Which is fine, play those games instead. There are some great titles out there like Fire Emblem, Luminous Arc, etc...

And this isn't directed to you, ZeoDefender, but lately I've heard many folks complaining about the general tropes that define JRPGs ("linear" exploration, "simplistic" combat, anime characters, etc) as opposed to specific problems with specific games (ie: a poorly designed combat system, lack of interesting dungeons, etc). I'm reminded of this absurd IGN article where the author repeatedly bemoans the fact that JRPGs aren't designed the same way WRPGs are. It's ludicrous - it's a bit like saying "Man Gradius would be such a good game if the screen didn't scroll and if I got to play as a dude with a gun instead of a spaceship! Why can't it be just like Contra?!"

Which kind of brings me to my next point - I've repeatedly heard that JRPGs need to evolve. I disagree, they need to return to their roots. We know what's worked with JRPGs - think of the games that were released 10-15 years ago that people still talk about today: FFVI, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Skies of Arcadia... Instead of seeing more games in this style, the big-time publishers are pushing far too many glossy "AAA" (some would say "Westernized") titles.

Take a game like Final Fantasy XIII. I don't know what the sales figures were (and I'm sure they're skewed by folks like me who will at least try anything with the Final Fantasy label on it), but it was derided by many fans of the genre and I can't imagine that it converted many gamers into JRPG-lovers. Contrast that to something like Ys Seven and Trails in the Sky (games that maintained a more "old school" aesthetic), niche titles that were almost universally praised by all who played them. To me this is the immediate future of the genre - the Falcom/Xseed stuff will get better and better, while the Square Enix slop will continue to degrade. Is anyone excited about Final Fantasy XV these days?

[Gamerforlife]

Now, of course, there's something to be said for a nice, slow paced turn based system rather than an adrenaline rush. It's nice to have a strategic system where you can take your time to plan out your moves and handle combat with your brain rather than your reflexes. I completely agree with this, but let's be honest. The JRPG combat system is about as intellectually stimulating as throwing cards into a hat. Sure, you might get some satisfaction from the mindless and repetitive activity, but that's about it. There is no depth here. In order to have real strategic depth you need to add more variables into the combat system. You need positioning, terrain, range, flanking, weather conditions, etc. You need a SRPG.

I do still play JRPGs and enjoy them, but with every JRPG I've played I've always said to myself "I really wish this game were a(n) Action RPG/Strategy RPG/Visual Novel instead."

It seems like you simply prefer SRPGs to regular RPGs. Which is fine, play those games instead. There are some great titles out there like Fire Emblem, Luminous Arc, etc...

And this isn't directed to you, ZeoDefender, but lately I've heard many folks complaining about the general tropes that define JRPGs ("linear" exploration, "simplistic" combat, anime characters, etc) as opposed to specific problems with specific games (ie: a poorly designed combat system, lack of interesting dungeons, etc). I'm reminded of this absurd IGN article where the author repeatedly bemoans the fact that JRPGs aren't designed the same way WRPGs are. It's ludicrous - it's a bit like saying "Man Gradius would be such a good game if the screen didn't scroll and if I got to play as a dude with a gun instead of a spaceship! Why can't it be just like Contra?!"

Which kind of brings me to my next point - I've repeatedly heard that JRPGs need to evolve. I disagree, they need to return to their roots. We know what's worked with JRPGs - think of the games that were released 10-15 years ago that people still talk about today: FFVI, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, Skies of Arcadia... Instead of seeing more games in this style, the big-time publishers are pushing far too many glossy "AAA" (some would say "Westernized") titles.

Take a game like Final Fantasy XIII. I don't know what the sales figures were (and I'm sure they're skewed by folks like me who will at least try anything with the Final Fantasy label on it), but it was derided by many fans of the genre and I can't imagine that it converted many gamers into JRPG-lovers. Contrast that to something like Ys Seven and Trails in the Sky (games that maintained a more "old school" aesthetic), niche titles that were almost universally praised by all who played them. To me this is the immediate future of the genre - the Falcom/Xseed stuff will get better and better, while the Square Enix slop will continue to degrade. Is anyone excited about Final Fantasy XV these days?

Considering that the last two FF games had one of the best combat systems in the genre right now and some of the most gorgeous, HD graphics I've ever seen, yes I am. The only thing wrong with FF games right now is their stories and characters. They need to work on that. The last "decent" story they had was in FFXII. Beyond that, FFXIII-2 was an excellent game that had a lot of what I expect a modern jrpg to have. It was largely devoid of a lot of the stuff that make jrpgs annoying. They just need to get away from this cheesy, crappy, Kingdom Hearts style storytelling that characterizes their games now. Stop writing shit for 13 year old anime nuts who wouldn't know a good story if it hit them on the head.

I don't want to see the genre return to its roots if it means grindy gameplay (FFVI) or incessant random encounters every .5 seconds (Skies of Arcadia). Those games were great for their time,but they had flaws which are far more annoying now than they were back then

What I really want more than anything is a kickass, modernized, Grandia game.

[Opa Opa]

To me this is the immediate future of the genre - the Falcom/Xseed stuff will get better and better, while the Square Enix slop will continue to degrade. Is anyone excited about Final Fantasy XV these days?

Me.

I haven't beaten 13 yet but I liked how streamlined it is. Yeah, the illusion of non-linearity is essentially gone but... aren't most JRPGs linear anyway?

And I love how the Final Fantasy series has almost always changed the gameplay formula in some way. Even if you don't like one game in the series there's always another that does something different that you may like. (edit: run-on sentence? don't care; not fixin' it. lol.)

So yeah, keep bringing on the Final Fantasy games.

[MrEco]

To me this is the immediate future of the genre - the Falcom/Xseed stuff will get better and better, while the Square Enix slop will continue to degrade. Is anyone excited about Final Fantasy XV these days?

Me.

I haven't beaten 13 yet but I liked how streamlined it is. Yeah, the illusion of non-linearity is essentially gone but... aren't most JRPGs linear anyway?

And I love how the Final Fantasy series has almost always changed the gameplay formula in some way. Even if you don't like one game in the series there's always another that does something different that you may like. (edit: run-on sentence? don't care; not fixin' it. lol.)

So yeah, keep bringing on the Final Fantasy games.

^Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

[tintinmayo]

Isn't the belief that "JRPGs need to die because it's not realtime like an Action Platformer" (is that what God of War is? Or is it an ARPG?) in the same vein as "chess needs to die because it's not realtime like basketball?" An entire genre shouldn't be judged as obsolete just because it doesn't control like games from an entirely different genre.